Takeaways from Michigan’s Season Opener That Could Change Everything + Interview with Phil Hubbard

[Hail Media Group presents Go Blue Hoops, where Michigan basketball’s past, present, and future all come together in one show. Hosted by former Wolverine great, 10-year NBA veteran, and longtime ESPN and NBC college basketball analyst Tim McCormick. Each episode goes beyond the box scores from championship memories and recruiting stories to sharp breakdowns of the season ahead.

Insight, legacy. Michigan basketball. This is Go Blue Hoops. Hey everybody, welcome to the Go Blue Hoops podcast. This is episode number 57 and we are so excited because the official season has started. We had a chance to watch the team play in Europe and we watch exhibition games, but now it’s for real and we’re going to talk a lot about not only the first game, but also the upcoming game on Friday against UConn. Uh before we get into it too deep, let’s thank our sponsors. The Go Blue Hoops podcast is presented by the leaders and the best at Michigan Medicine. There’s a difference between an answer and a Michigan answer. To find your Michigan answer, visit michiganers.org.

Thank you so much to Michigan Medicine. Also, OLIPOP is a wonderful sponsor for us. We’re so lucky. It’s a healthier soda option. Uh, also Knight’s Steakhouse. If you want the best steak in Ann Arbor, it’s close to the Diag. Um, you are looking for the right place if you go to Knight’s Steakhouse. Also, Valiant is our apparel provider. And also, um, a special relationship with the A2 Homegirl Real Estate Group with eXp Realty. Sheri Weintraub is the lady in charge. She knows the real estate in Ann Arbor and she knows what it’s like to go blue. All right, so what’s on the agenda for podcast number 57? We’re going to

break down game one versus Oakland. It was nothing earthshattering, but there are a couple of lessons that I think are very important as the competition gets better. Also, we’re going to talk about Michigan playing UConn. Yeah, I know that the women’s team plays on Thursday, uh, number two versus number five, I believe, and that’s going to be a great one. Everybody should check that out.

But Michigan plays UConn in a national championship rematch on Friday night. Husky Nation was surprised they lost to Michigan. They’ve got a great legacy going under Dan Hurley. Payback will be mentioned for sure. Last, we’re going to talk to one of the greatest legends in Michigan basketball history, the great Phil Hubbard. Cazzie Russell was the first guy to have his number retired, followed closely by Rudy Tomjanovich. Number three, the great Phil Hubbard. For those of you that don’t know about Phil, um my conversations with him are always priceless. I know you’re going to love this one. Um, as a matter of fact, when I was 12 years old, I attended the Johnny Orr basketball camp, and this was

in the mid 1970s, and the guest speaker for the camp was Phil Hubbard, and I was mesmerized. He did such a good job um as a freshman in college talking to a big group of campers. And I remember he talked about how important goal setting was. And Phil Hubbard said that he had three goals. Number one, to play basketball at Michigan. Number two, to have an NBA career. And also number three, to play in the Olympics. If those goals were good enough for Phil Hubbard, they were certainly good enough for me. And those became my three goals. And I did play at Michigan. And I did have a chance to play 10 years in the NBA. and I was an alternate on the US Olympic team in

1984. That would have been an incredible experience, but I I owe it all to Phil Hubbard for expanding my vision and talking about goal setting. So, we’re going to enjoy a great conversation with the great Phil Hubbard. So, number 16

Michigan knocked off the Oakland Grizzlies led by last week’s guest Greg Kampe 84 to68. the updates from the Oakland game. First off, it was special to get this season started. It sounded wonderful every time. National champion was mentioned. Good job to Nik Stauskas. He’s doing a really good job with his broadcasting career. We’re all proud of him. The game against Oakland, I guess, went according to plan. You may remember that last week, Greg Kampe on the podcast was extremely accurate in predicting what was going to happen. and he said, “We can really shoot.” And that was accurate. He said, “Our 113 zone will create problems.” And it did , 1 secondbecause they’re the only team in the country that plays this unique hybrid 2-3 zone defense. And I thought that there were a lot of spells during the

game where our guard play, our ball handling, our security were a little bit lazy and and were not crisp. And and that’s not going to work against a team like UConn. He said that Oakland would struggle with Michigan’s size and if Michigan went in the paint it was going to be a problem. Um that was accurate once again plus 24 for Michigan in the paint and that was without Mustafa Cham. I thought that Michigan did not play their best basketball and I think there is a lot of teaching points that they’re going to have to walk away with and get better. But overall it was okay.

the high spots. Roddy Gayle has improved offensively. He attacked the middle of the zone. Um, he is a very strong finisher and looked greatly improved. I was impressed. Also, JP Estrella played the best game I’ve ever seen from him. He’s long, he’s active. Um, I wonder if he’s better at center and maybe move Mustafa more to the power forward position. The foul trouble was an issue for Michigan. I know that JP fouled out.

Most of his fouls came because the guards allowed penetration also on second chance opportunities for Oakland. I also loved the fact that the team gave the game ball to coach Boon. Um he was the architect of last year’s defense and they held Oakland at 31% from the field. Uh he also recruited the roster to retain them was a huge challenge. I was happy for Mike Boynton and just the pride that he must have felt getting his first Michigan victory. I’m also Quinn Costello is a fantastic shooter. He’s not shy at all. Um he had a couple of decent sequences on the defensive end.

Uh, I would say that’s the flaw in his game and that’s the one that they’re going to give him a lot of opportunities to cover guards in switching situations early in the year because if they’re going to be able to utilize his deep shooting, which they certainly want to do, he’s going to have to be able to cover and contain the dribble of guards. If he doesn’t, this isn’t going to work for him because um, he’s going to get targeted in pick and roll situations non-stop. Okay, so we expect big wins versus weaker opponents. Michigan has

now won 24 of their last 26 games. So, what did I see from Michigan that raised a few concerns? First of all, Trey McKinney is the best shooter in the Big Ten. No shots until the 1120 mark of the first half. um if he’s not open then I want him to drive and create. He’s their best scoreer and for him to take 10 or 11 shots is not good enough. Um also in the second half I thought Michigan played lazy and sloppy. Elliot held the ball too much and Michigan will play based on his energy and his ability to create shots for his teammates. It’s a big responsibility, but Elliot Cadeau is the alpha dog of this team and there’s no question that if he doesn’t bring

energy, and I didn’t like his energy against Houston either. So, I have a feeling he’s going to have his breakout game for this season on Friday against UConn. Um, I’m still concerned with the three-point shooting. Last year versus Oakland, Michigan made 19 threes. Um, Mike Boynton said, “We will shoot more threes than last year.” Uh, the number that I always look at is 35. 35% and above. I’m happy with the three-point shooting. That did not happen against Oakland. Uh, Michigan was 3 for5 in the first half from three. When you’re shooting that poorly, I think you change your approach. You go inside a little bit more. you try to pick up your defense and get transition points.

Michigan 7 for 34 for the game. That’s not good. U if you’re not shooting well, find other ways. And and they did some of that. Michigan plus 22 points in the paint, plus 22 transition points. I did like that. Look, I’m not discouraged by um an okay performance. I like the potential of this team a great deal. And I know that in order to beat UConn, they’re going to have to do a much better job on the glass. Oakland is a small team and they had 20 plus offensive rebounds and I thought that Oakland was more aggressive on the boards. UConn will be twice as aggressive and physical and intense as Oakland will. So, you want the wakeup call to be watching the film sessions and the messages sent in practice. Don’t wait till Friday night versus UConn. I

cannot wait for that matchup and I think we will learn everything we need to know about this current Michigan team. It’s not a lot that I’m sharing about the Oakland game. Um it it’s been three days and it was an okay performance, not great, but building blocks are the key foundational piece for this Michigan team. They’ve got seven guys that are new to the program that have never played in this setting versus UConn. So, this is another good wakeup call. And kudos to Greg Kampe. I love his 43 years coaching at Oakland. Um, his system is unique and it works and he is a legend and somebody that I am fortunate to call a friend. So, good job to Oakland. We wish them luck in their season. Always

love to talk to Greg Kampe. Okay, let’s talk UConn Michigan. Let’s get excited for a heavyweight matchup this early in

the season on Friday night. Number 16 Michigan versus top five UConn. And we will learn everything that we need to know versus an elite opponent. This will be the best non-conference opponent that Michigan plays this year. And Mike Boynton was the architect of that defense last year that beat UConn in April. And he knows the key personnel very well. That’s a good advantage for Michigan.

Last year, I thought that the Huskies strength was their big guys. Tarris Reed, former Michigan player, and Alex Karaban. Both are NBA players today. Um, and it changes the emphasis. Last year was big guys. This year, UConn is a guardriven team with Silas Demery, an all big E standout at point guard, and future lottery pick Braylon Mullins. He’s a sharpshooter. might be the best shooter in all of college basketball. What else? UConn is elite on defense.

There are no weak links in this lineup. They may actually have a better defensive squad this year than Michigan saw in the national championship game. On offense, they run NBA motion. The spacing is great. Their players are unselfish. Danny Hurley is an offensive guru. It’s just non-stop motion and screens. Extremely hard to cover. Quinn Costello is going to have his work cut out for him because they will attack him nonstop. Um, warning, this UConn team will be faster and more athletic than last year’s championship runnerup. Um, you’re probably saying, “How can that be?” Yes, they’ve added speed and athleticism. So, Michigan is going to have their hands full for sure. UConn is the premier program in all of college basketball over the last 5 years. Three

national championship appearances in four seasons. They are a favorite again to play in Detroit in a final four. Michigan has seven new players that have not experienced the pressure and intensity. Um, I expect this to be a wonderful learning experience and it’s probably going to remind us a lot of Michigan playing against Houston in Grand Rapids. Just great ball pressure, forcing turnovers, a test of manhood.

So, the matchup is nearly here. What are the game keys that you should watch for? Number one, the marquee matchup is easy to see. It’s point guard Elliot Cadeau was dominant in last year’s final four. Silas Demery wants payback. Two of the top point guards in all of college basketball head-to-head. Whoever controls this battle gives their team a great opportunity to win. Also, Michigan has a front court advantage for sure. JP Estrella was so darn good versus Oakland. He was long. He was active. He um he kept balls alive. His finishing was exceptional. And then also if Mustafa Cham is healthy on Friday night, I think that Michigan has an advantage against the big guys from

UConn. Getting out rebounded like they did against Oakland is not going to work against this team. Playing in transition will be very important for both squads. If you’re playing fast basketball, you can usually look at the rebounding numbers and feel good about it. Um, key number three, who’s the best shooter in college basketball? Well, we think Trey McKinney. UConn fans think it’s Brilan Mullings. He’s the Big East preseason player of the year. It’s a fascinating matchup. Both players use their system to get mid-range shots off. I think that Braylon Mullins is is a little bit more of a three-point shooter, but Trey McKinney was good versus Oakland. He needs to be great versus UConn. Um,

number four, handle the toughness and the physicality and the intensity of the Huskys. This game will be a lot like Houston and Grand Rapids. It’ll be hard to run and you got to limit turnovers. Also, best defensive team wins this game. No question about it. Watch the field goal percentage because if you’re forcing misses, that ignites your fast break. All right. I don’t typically pick winners and losers or try to guess scores, but I will say this that I think this is going to be a tough game for Michigan to win. The reason I say that, just coming off of the Houston game and watching how the the intensity of the pressure defense affected Michigan and

then the struggles on the boards against Oakland, I think that UConn wins a close game. I think it’ll be high scoring. And if you want to want to come up with a really important key, Michigan has got to be able to get the right guy shooting threes. Not everybody gets to launch threes. It’s a privilege. It’s a right that has to be earned. Guys like Ricky Liburd, I mean, he’s going to be an important player and he just cannot make shots right now. When you look at Oscar Goodman, Oscar does a lot of good things. I’m not convinced that he’s a three-point shooter now. So, those are some of the small things, but but at the end, I think whoever wins the three-point battle wins this game.

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All right, it’s time for the Michigan man interview and we have a true Michigan legend with us. The great Phil Hubbard. Number 35 is in the rafters at Crisler Arena. Um Phil, you are all Big Ten All-American 1976 Final Four. Also an Olympic gold medal. That’s kind of impressive, too. Phil, I always love our conversations and I’m glad Michigan basketball fans get a chance to learn a little bit about your career. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for having me, Tim. It’s a great opportunity, you know, to talk to another Michigan man and uh I was I watched your show. I think you do a great job. So, I’m looking forward to being on it as I am right this moment. Thank you so much. Uh we we sat at practice for 90 minutes last week and we got to dive into this team a little bit. I’d be curious, what are some of your thoughts on this Michigan team as they get ready for UConn on Friday?

I I think I was impressed with what I saw, you know, to lose the size, you know, lose three guys that went to the NBA and then we, you know, that was height and that was athletic ability and we be able to try to replace those. it’s hard to replace them, but to have some young guys come in and be able to replace those guys. I think that’s I was impressed by the size, you know, and their athletic ability. I know we’re going to be a guard oriented team, but I I like what Mike’s doing with the guys and I like the practice, their energy, and their effort was great. I also watched the game the other day, too. I know you asked me about that, but you know, first game out, you never know what you’re going to get.

Yeah. When we finished practice, I I know that you had a nice conversation with Mike Boynton. What did you walk away with from that conversation? I just wanted to wish him luck. There’s a lot to to live up to because, you know, you’re national champions from last year, but you know, they just got to make their own their own team, you know, form their own team, you know, don’t try to repeat last year right away. Just try to do the best you can from the start because expectations is always high, you know, from the start.

But again, they have to kind of like make their own path to the uh finals of whatever they’re going to do. But this team has to make their own path. You you cannot repeat the team last year was such a great team, a great year, and we’ll never forget that finals appearance in the championship. But this year, there’s a bunch of some guys coming back, but again, you have to try to make your own road. Hub, you grew up in Canton, uh in Ohio.

How did you end up in Ann Arbor? I would think that Ohio State would close those borders and keep you at home. Um, how did you choose Michigan? Well, that that path to Michigan was was kind of funny because myself I’ll just get started like this quickly. I was Ohio State. I had been Ohio State fan. I grew up in Ohio. So, I assumed I was going to go to Ohio State and play basketball. But, uh, Bill Frieder had a different thing in mind, you know, and he, uh, he was a good recruiter. But I will say this, I had talked to a fellow friend of mine, Truman Clater, who ended up going to Kentucky and we were supposed to go to Iowa together, the two of us, and we were set to go to Iowa. We went on the visit together and

everything, but he went to Kentucky. So, kind of changed the path a little bit. And then Frieder was on me all the time. And just staying at my I mean, he was at my house, you know, like you can’t do that now. He was at my house for almost a week just there, you know, coming to practice. Stayed at your house. Yeah. Well, in the Canton, okay? You know, he kept showing up and uh I just felt like it was a good fit for me, but I knew it was a lot of pressure on me to leave the state because I got pressure from I used to get bags and bags of letters from school kids about going to Ohio State and just to be able to pick Michigan because I thought it was a good fit for me. I thought an opportunity I could play and and uh I

felt good about my decision, but again, thinking back on that, it was a great decision, but I really thought I was going to be a go to Ohio State to be honest with you, but I didn’t end up there. I end up at a great place, Michigan. Yeah, Johnny was your head coach. Frieder was the the recruiter. Um I know you’ve got some good stories about them. Tell us about Johnny Orr tell us about Bill Frieder. Well, Johnny Orr was uh was a guy he had, you know, I didn’t realize how funny he was, you know, to one day I went to a camp with him and you know, he was telling those jokes. I was like, man, Coach Orr is really funny, you know, cuz he always thought about your coach.

We we were riding to the camp together. He don’t say those jokes to me, but once he gets there and starts talking to the campers, you know, he’s got all these jokes. But I really like Coach Orr. He was a great he was a great uh motivator, you know, he was a great communicator. uh he he he never really yelled at me, you know what I’m saying? He didn’t yell. He yelled at a lot of guys, but not me. And I I was I appreciate that as I got older, but you know, he just was a good communicator with me. And I felt I really liked him as a coach. And Frieder was just a hard worker. I mean, a great recruiter. You know, you can see the path he took after Coach Orr left. But to get me to come to Michigan because it

was like it was going to be tough. He’s he he really made me feel comfortable and got me to sign that letter of intent and then that was to change my life. But I like coach Frieder. I thought he was a good coach. You know, we had a bond. We had we’ve had a bond still to these days. You know, we see each other. He’s in Arizona. I go out there. I’ll say try to look him up or San Diego, which one one of those cities he’s in. But uh the biggest thing was that Frieder was just determined to get me to come to Michigan.

I know you’ll appreciate this that that Bill Frieder used to send one of his assistant coaches to all of my sister’s girl high school basketball games in case I showed up. I know you’ve got a Bill Frieder recruiting story. What What would that be? That would be that the day that I signed him and his wife came down. Him and his wife. And it was the last day like these days the letter of intent at that time was supposed to expire that Sunday. So this it’s this is Sunday and he said I said well I want to make my decision , 1 secondtomorrow Monday. He said oh no no the letter has to be signed today cuz if it expires we can’t get another one. I was like I don’t I don’t believe that. So I huddle with my mother and my father and talk about it you know and him and Janice are in the living room. Uh we’re

in in my bedroom talking and they’re they just sitting there and then he comes back out said give me well you sure I can’t sign it tomorrow? He said no you got to sign it today. And then I end up signing the letter of intent that day on the last day before it expired. He probably told Janice, “I’mma take you on a date.” Yeah. Yeah. My Yeah. He They were at my house till almost midnight. [laughter] Yeah.

Who was the best player that you ever played with at Michigan? I think the best player all my teammates were good. I mean, I I don’t really The guy’s like the best player. I mean, I thought Ricky Ricky was probably the fastest player I played with. Ricky Green. Yeah, Ricky Green. And as a speed because uh uh it was funny because we were at my first our first round game against Wichita State. We were down by I think two. It was about I don’t know how many seconds was left and he just sprinted up the court and got a layup.

But you know his speed was just phenomenal. But I liked all my teammates. Grody, Dave Baxter, John Robinson, Wayne and Brit. You know I I that was my roommate on the road. I don’t I just had a real comfortable feeling around everybody as far as you know uh rating them. I thought they all was good to me and I was good to them as teammates. We’re still teammates. I mean friends till today because you know that bond we had at University of Michigan.

But the far the score that never passed anybody was Mike McGee. [laughter] He know he shot the ball. He shot the ball every time he got Mike every time he got he thought he could score a basket. But he probably was the best scorer. But again I thought I I loved all my teammates. I have really nothing but fond me memories about the guys I played with.

I think you’ll appreciate this. My first game ever as a Michigan Wolverine before the game, Mike McGee came up to me and he said, “Listen, when you get the ball, don’t shoot. Give it to me.” [laughter] He was dead. That’s him. He was dead serious. I mean, this guy did not pass. But, you know, he was a good kid. He was a good guy, though. Yeah. So, so Phil, you played in the final four in 76. played in the championship game, lost to Indiana, who was undefeated. You were also in Indy this year for Michigan’s run to a national championship. How is the final four changed in the years since when you played?

I think the biggest thing has changed is that the venue, you know, the venue is in the football stadium. We were playing at where the Sixers played uh in in a regular stadium that hold about 18,000. You know, now this the venue is so big, you know, so it’s such a big thing. I think that’s that’s part of it, you know, that just where the game is played, all the people that come and can see the game because it’s in the football stadium and, you know, there was only a number of tickets like, you know, 18,000 that you sold it out right , 1 secondaway. But now the venue that they play in is such a big thing. And then the exposure of, you know, how the game is exposed,

certain way media and everything is a whole lot better, a whole lot bigger. And I think that’s that’s really the big threat to the exposure you get and, you know, everything that comes. But back then, you know, we I think we had the game was always on Monday 9:00, 8:00, and 9:00. Now, you know, it’s just the same thing, but the buildup to it. But, uh, it was a it was a great thing. You know, you you always think that you’re going to go back. You know what I’m saying? You know, you think if you can get there one time, you think you’re going to go back. You never know. That’s why I always tell guys, win now, don’t worry about later.

Um, during the the title run last year for Michigan, what impressed you the most about that team? I think the versatility, you know, the versatility of the guys. You had Yaxel playing three big as he was. He was playing a threeman. The line, the front line was really good. Excuse me. Excuse me. Um, the guards play was good, but I thought their versatility, the way they was able to guard multiple positions, able to switch up, you know, switch everything, make it hard on everybody because they just had that versatility and and I thought that their pace, the pace they had was really good. They got out, they they got up and down the foot.

Elliot Cadel was really good at pushing the ball and getting out, getting easy baskets. So, a really a solid point guard always helps cuz he looks to give the ball up to the guys and make everybody happy. But I was just impressive that they were able with the versatility on defense and their pace of of game was just uh phenomenal. Dusty did a great job. Yeah, Yaxel is is just a an amazing prospect. He might be rookie of the year. He could be an all-star the way he’s been playing.

Someone once asked me, “Who does Yaxel remind you of in Michigan basketball history?” I always say Phil Hubbard. Um do do you do you see any comparisons? What what do you think of Yaxel’s game? He’s a little bit more mobile because you know they today’s game you put the ball on the floor, you can dribble around. You know we always had to go to a spot or something. But you know I I would say he uh his his game is very phenomenal revers because he knocks down the three, he puts it on the floor, he creates for his teammates. you know, he he remind me not as good, but he looked like Tommy Stton a little bit, you know, you know, just looked not not so so much game. Tommy had that, you know, that forward game too, uh, guard forward game, but didn’t shoot as well as him,

but defended as well as he did. But again, the versatility just was phenomenal. And and you see it, it’s taken to the pros. You know, his versatility that he was able to give us here at Michigan, he’s giving it to the Golden State Warriors right now. You played in the 76 National Championship game against Indiana. Actually played against them three times and had some good battles. Uh what are what are your memories about playing at Assembly Hall and playing against that team? And also did you ever have any interaction with Bobby Knight?

I didn’t have much with Bobby Knight, but I had a lot with the players. You know, the the game I remember the most was the game that we played there and we lost in overtime because we were winning by two and there was a tip in between me and Kent Biz and he hit my hand and I and I tipped almost tipped the ball in. Looked like I tipped the ball in and they the game went to overtime and we lost. That’s probably the most memorable game besides the f the game because we had them. We had them, you know, we had them. We went to overtime and lost and then the finals game was we had a good half and the second half they just kind of wore us down. But they were a good team. You know, it’s it’s very difficult to talk

about, you know, you can lose a couple times to a team, you know, you just want you figure you could get one of those games, you know. No, there’s no way you could lose all three of them, but we did unfortunately. But, uh, one was a blowout, the other two was a blowout. Well, two was a blowout. So, it just didn’t work out. But they were a good team and they had, you know, they had the the size and everything but and they did repetition. But as far as much contact with Bobby Knight, I didn’t I didn’t have a lot of contact with them.

But the player right after the right after that season 76, you uh you played in the Olympics. You were the youngest player on the team in Montreal. Please share some stories about what it was like playing in the Olympics and and Dean Smith. Well, first of all, me and Ricky got invited and I assumed that I was going down to say, “Well, I’ve just tried out for the team and Ricky’s probably going to make the team because I was a freshman. I didn’t feel like I I knew it was a great opportunity, but I didn’t think I was going to make the team.” So, when we get down there, it’s about 70 players, you know. So, they got they at North Carolina State. We’re trying out

and uh we’re going through the uh drills and stuff like that. And the other thing is they had you had to run a mile at a certain time so coach Smith would make if you didn’t make it you had to run it again even before practice. So I did it twice at the second time I wouldn’t do it. But the biggest thing was I really felt like I was going to have my letter that they invited me then the next year would the next four years would be my year. And then uh going back home at this time communication was a lot different you know. So, I’m in the airport. Another Detroit Davis who went to Dayton sees me and he says, “Uh, you made the team.” I said, “I ain’t made the team. This is an airport.” He knows

before I get back. I said, he said, “I’m I’m telling you, you you you’re one of the final 15.” Cuz they only kept 15 guys. So, I said, “No, you don’t know what you’re talking about.” He said, “I’m telling you.” So, I fly home to Canton, Ohio. And when I get home, the phone rings and they said, “You made the final 15. you got to come back. You got to come back. Give you two days. I got to go back. And we spend a month in North Carolina. And I thought Coach Smith was really good, a really a good coach. He knew his basketball. He he had he took a lot of slack because he put a lot of ACC players on the team. And uh it was three Big Ten players, me, Scott May, and Quinn. And then Adrien Dantley uh was the other player from Notre Dame.

Everybody else was from the ACC. So he took a lot of heat for that. You know, I’m going to share a real quick story. I don’t think I’ve ever told you this. When I was 12 years old, my dad sent me to Johnny Orr basketball camp and the highlight of the camp was Phil Hubbard spoke to the entire camp and I I’ll never forget you said that you had three goals and goal setting is really important. Number one, he wanted to play at Michigan. Number two, you wanted to play in the NBA. And number three, you wanted to play in the Olympics. And so I I decided if those goals are good enough for Phil Hubbard, they were going to be mine, too. So I wrote them down and kept them in my drawer and so it was very

impactful. What do you remember about the championship game? Cuz I know you scored 10 points. You were a key player. I think you beat Yugoslavia. What was that celebration like? That celebration was big because you know that we had lost to the Russians before that. So we were kind of we were geared up to play the Russians. Okay. Because we thought that was going to be the rematch but Yugoslavia end up beating them. The one thing I’ll say about this, we’re all college students or, you know, college players. Those guys were men. I mean, they were in they were men. I mean, they were in the 25, they were up in age. So that was that was the biggest thing, you know, you learned about physicality and

I came off the bench and was able to get the points cuz I mean I I hustled did the things but I remember that game so well because at the moment you know we we were in a revenge mode but we end up playing Yugoslavia and end up getting the championship. But our biggest game was against uh Puerto Rico where we had to play Puerto Rico and Butch Lee who played for Marquette almost pushed us oh we almost lost that but it was still a pool game. we would have made it. But that was the biggest thing. But you you never forget the Olympics. I think that’s the biggest accomplishment of my basketball career because it comes around only so many people people get selected and at that time we were all college players. Now it’s NBA players a

whole lot different and we had to really earn that uh gold medal. Where’s your gold medal today? I’ve in a safety deposit box. I don’t you never wear it around? No. go out to dinner, go out to movie. No, nobody wants to see like what is that? They think they may think that’s something different. But I I think the value of it is that it’s something I earn. It’s something that I deser, you know, got. And uh one day I’ll leave it to my kids and they’ll decide what they’re going to do with it. Uh uh the biggest thing is that you know that’s that was just something that every year comes around every four years excuse me comes around you know that you’re going to be a you know that you can remember how it was and how we got treated and it was a big moment. It’s just a big moment

that that is special. So, all Big Ten, all American national championship game, gold medal, and then you tear your ACL. That must have been devastating. And also because it was before the time when they’ve got modern medicine and and all kinds of new techniques. What was that like from an adversity management standpoint? It’s stressful. I mean, if I look back on it, you know, you come out of that thing surgery and they got a big pass on your leg up to your up to your thigh and just just stuck in that position you where they did your surgery at. And it’s it’s really disheartening because you just shows you how much you love basketball, you know, cuz at that moment, even when you get ready to have

the surgery, they they say, “Well, uh, it’s going to be we don’t know what’s going to happen.” Like, what do you mean you don’t know what happen? you told me I’m going to be able to come back and play. So, it kind of scares you even at that time. You know, they didn’t couldn’t tell you what what you were going to be. But, I think the biggest thing is just not being part of the team, trying to maintain some sanity about trying to get back to be a part of the team. And it’s just it was hard. It was hard, but it was it was a growing experience. Learned me that I maybe need to have a college degree or something. I may need something to fall back on because you never know what’s going to

happen. you never know uh if you’re going to get injured or when it’s going to happen. And that thing made me think about the other side of basket that uh other side of my life like basketball is here but what’s what else can I do as an individual and I think that kind of woke me up to make me want to graduate from college and try to get a degree because at first I’m sure I was wasn’t thinking about that part. I was thinking about maybe I’m going to go I’m going to leave here a little short-handed of a degree cuz I’m trying to get out of here. But but that’s it. It’s it’s just an adjustment. But now it’s so much better, you know. And that I went to up to Atlant. I’ll say this, that’s the first

time they had a scope had just been in Bennett and I had a scope and that’s when they looked in there and said that uh it was tore, you know, it was banged up. But again, those things just started coming, Tim. , 1 secondSo, you know, you can think about and you know, surgery now is so much better, but back then it was it was difficult. You know, I wish you know, it wasn’t as modern as it was and people knew a lot more about it. But it but I did was able to get a lot more 10 12 10 years out of this league after that in the pros. But again, my game had to change because of my mobility. Yeah.

You um you played for a long time. Uh number 15 pick in the draft. Do you think you ever really got back to 100%. Because I always felt like you had allstar potential. You had a really good career. Did do you think you were 100%. I I got back to a percentage, you know, but not the same player cuz some of my quickness was gone. But, you know, I don’t know if I ever got back to that type of player because of injury. Took a lot of things away. Took away my probably my leaping ability. Some I was more of a grounded. But I think I had a great career. I was able to get drafted in the first round and I still didn’t get a chance. You know, I had some good seasons in the NBA, but you know, by

getting hurt, you never know what’s going to happen, where I could have went, you know, would I have been um Hall of Famer or something like that, maybe, you know, depending on the team you go to. But again, I was satisfied with my pro career. But, you know, if you stay healthy, you probably could have a little bit more. But you don’t know, you know, you you still could be that and you could play and still they were drafting people that wasn’t making it and I was making it on one late. But again, I I was happy with my pro career.

I was satisfied. Um, but who knows, Tim, that’s what I say. Who knows if I hadn’t got hurt what would have happened. I’m I’m glad you brought up your pro career because I grew up a big Pistons fan. Um, you were you were drafted by Dick Vitale, Bob Lanier’s there, Greg Kelser, three U of D players, John Long and Terry Tyler, and I think Terry Dur. Like, what was what was that experience like playing for the Pistons, man? Oh, man. That was that was that was a goal of mine to be able to get the pros. So, I had I could have went back, you know, they drafted me. I could have went back to school and cuz and I thought about it but I was like you know I I’ve been willing to do this. So I always are thankful for Dick Vitale before drafting me. He tried to recruit me to come to UD

so I knew him but you know for drafting me it was u a good you know that was I was thankful for that because you know it gave me my pro career. But going to the Pistons you know you had Bob Lanier uh you had Leon W. You know, it we were we were thinking like young me, Greg, and I’m I’mma say this, too. And I got to say something about Greg, who’s a good friend of mine now. Me and Greg were enemies. I mean, we he played at Michigan State, I played at Michigan. We were not We were not friends. We were not friends at all during college career during We were not friends, you know, cuz I was trying to beat him. He was trying to beat me. And the funniest thing out now, he’s one of my best

friends, you know. He’s one of my best friends. But being drafted, we, you know, they had three first round picks and I was, they took Greg at four, Roy Hamilton and myself at 10 and myself at 15. And Terry Dur was the second round pick or maybe a fourth round pick, maybe a fourth round pick even later. But John Long and Terry Tyler were second round pick. And man, it was so different. You know, training camp was a month and we had like rookie team. That was it. It was just no veterans. It was like 10 because you know they had 10 rounds.

They draft 10 rounds of people, you know, we had the whole rookie team and I’m I’m thinking, man, this is going to be great. I’m thinking it’s going to be a uh really fun. I’m getting some minutes. And the veterans came, started playing and we started playing. I still getting some minutes. And I’ll just tell you this right now. This is the story that really shocked me. My whole basketball career, okay, I was a starter.

Junior high, high school, college. Okay. I always started. Okay. My first game with the Detroit Piston was the first time I never started. That was the first game. And you you want to tell you want to know some guy that was hot? That was me. I was hot. That was hot because I had never adjusted that. So now I’mma give you a quick story. So the game is like it’s the first quarter over, second quarter over, third quarter over, fourth quarter, three minutes I get my name called.

That’s when I got in the game. I mean, I was thinking, well, maybe I shouldn’t go in. I was just just thinking no go crazy, but I went in, you know, but Tim, I had never adjusted. That was the first time ever I had sat on the bench that long and it and and I was like this might not. So, you know, and I played maybe 3 minutes, whatever. It wasn’t 3 minutes cuz you know, think about this.

You wake up at three, they game goes go. So, by the time you get in, it’s two. So, it’s 2 minutes. So get in there, nothing really happens. Just kind of runs up and down. And I and I was like, man, this is crazy. So that was an adjustment, you know, that I I’ve never had before my whole career, you know, that now I’m with the Pistons and I’m like, this goes on for quite a few games, you know, that I don’t get to play sometimes. I I just thinking I should have stayed in college or something like that. But again, I still enjoyed my time cuz it was in the pros, but I also got a message with Dick. Dick Vitale was very very bold uh very loud and very uh used

a lot of different language words that I won’t say on this on this show. And I was like I said to John and Terry, I said, “Did he do that to y’all all the time in college?” They said, “It was worse. It was worse.” He said, “It was worse.” And then so as it went I was happy about yeah four months 3 months maybe two and a half months in and I’ll give you a quick story uh we get a call said don’t come to practice it’s like what we don’t come to practice don’t come to practice we’ll call you and let you know and they said because they’re going to fire Dick and they fired him that day like 3 months. So really, you know, and I think it was because the veterans kind of like turned

on him and once the veterans kind of turned on him and wasn’t supporting him, they they let him go and then we had Richie Adubato and Herman Cole became the coach. But and I got and guess what? I got to play. So I was got to play, but that was good. But I I I I’m thankful for Dick. I thought, you know, he drafted me and uh gave me an opportunity, but uh it the first couple years with the Pistons was tough. It was really tough.

You you went on and had an outstanding career. Um I was looking at your numbers in December of 84. You’re playing for the Cavs and you made your first 14 shots against the Lakers and scored 37 points. What do you remember about that game and who who was playing for the Lakers? There we go. All the big boys is playing. Magic, Kareem, Worthy, uh, Cooper, all them guys was playing. I I was I was I had I had a moment. And only thing I’m mad about Tim, I didn’t get 40. I should have cuz I kept be I mean, everything was I didn’t realize how much was, you know, I was just scoring at everything, putting in layups, everything, shots, everything I took went in. And I just I remember that game because that’s the most points I scored. But and it was against the Lakers. But it was a heck of a game.

Then you think about cuz I was like I had a chance to get 40 and I and I kind of passed up to my teammates. We we didn’t win the game cuz they were still , 1 secondrunning and gunning. But that was the the probably the biggest time. And to this day I still hold a record for the most consecutive baskets made by a Cav even with LeBron being there. The think it’s 15 because they carried it to the next game. and I made my first couple of shots and 14 then carried the next ones I made. So it was I think it was like 15 in a row shots until I missed.

So you played in a game with Kareem and Magic and Worthy and you were the best player in that building. Oh yeah, I was I I was I had a moment now. I had a moment. I just I just didn’t realize I should have got more numbers. Yeah. So Cazzie and Glenn Rice and Rudy T and Trey Burke and Bill Bun. All great players. Who’s the best player that you ever saw play at Michigan?

I didn’t see it at Michigan, but I always give it to Cazzie and Rudy. I mean, I think those guys, you know, you got to give it to Cazzie. Uh he he was the first and then Rudy was very very good, you know, and um and Rice uh was shot the heck out the ball. uh bunting them rebound, but it it’s Cazzie because of what he did before us got there. But then I would go to order because Rudy too was was was darn good uh with the things he did. And then Glenn Rice and took a chance, you know, just everybody had the era of player, you know, and I think they all were we all were good, but you know, when you look at the to start the to the steps up or the statue, it’s probably Cazzie. Uh, and I didn’t see him a lot. I just read about, you know, the the Michigan thing, but I did.

And Rudy, and I give Rudy a lot of credit, too. And other guy, and I love Glenn. Uh, I thought he was such a great shooter. And then the other guy, Trey, and then I was really fond of Trey. He had some great moments. You know, any any Michigan guy, I think they all were great because they had their moments. You know, I had my moments, too. But, uh, it’s great to be a part of a program that, you know, we we don’t we we we don’t realize this. We always think that Michigan is a basketball school, but we know it’s not. You know, it’s the football cuz they make all the money.

But we we get we do the we we do the hard work, but they make all the money because they got the bigger stadium. If we had that stadium, we’ be the same. But all the Michigan guys, you know, I I very fond of, as I say that all the time. And um I think they all we all had our moments, you know, and that’s why I I I enjoyed playing for Michigan. I’m sure they did, too.

Hub, you uh you coached for a long time in the NBA after you played and now you’re a high school coach in Virginia. Um with analytics and and what what what are all the the the biggest differences between when you played and the way the game’s played today? I I think the game the way the game is played today and I’m I’ll start with the pros when I get to high school. It has to change. I was telling you before it can’t stay the same. You know, we we can’t play the way we played. I think change is is needed for the game to evolve. And you know, I think the biggest thing about now is three-point shot. I mean, three-point shot. You see guys come down on a fast break. We be trying to get a layup. They just stop at

the three-point line and jack it up. and they had a layup because that, you know, they think that’s the analytics of it. If you can get open three-point, knock it down. And and I think that, you know, everybody wants, nobody wants to play inside like we did at that time. You know, think about him. Everybody thinks they want to play in uh around the perimeter. You have to play around the perimeter. But I think that’s the biggest thing too. And now I to the high school level, you tell the guy, “Get inside. Get inside.” and you know he gets offended a little bit because he thinks you know when I get to college I got to be on the perimeter and not but you know I think you have to play the biggest thing is get on the

floor and play you know and then that the the decision will come to you if you’re on the bench talking about you should be playing a a three and you’re a four you know you’re not helping yourself you just need to be on the court playing and getting the opportunity to show what you can do every night and I think that’s the biggest thing about now high school players. I got to be, you know, I got to be at this position. I got to be a point guard. I got to be a two guard. Play.

Just get on the floor and play. But, you know, again, nobody wants to play inside. So, you got to give them Yeah. I haven’t had opportunity. Tell them if you have a three-point shot, you can take it, you know, but we’re not going to let you take 20 of them. We’ll give you about three two or three of them. If you miss them, then you going to have to stop them. I’m with a good coach named Ben Fel. He’s put about maybe 50 60 guys in division one basketball at this school called Paul the six before I got there. I’m I’m I’m helping out. But you know it’s a good program as a Catholic school. The same league is the math and he deals they deal with the dayto-day. I I just deal with the basketball part.

But and the same thing in high school everybody has these dreams and goals and the thing is the patient. you do you have patient even at that level because parents sometime not happy with the way their kids are getting uh playing time then they pull them out and and it’s it’s not that we want them to leave it’s just that they think that’s a better situation and you can’t say it it ain’t maybe you know but we’ve had kids that stayed and by the time they became a junior or senior they’re really a big part of the program it’s just being patient to get to that part of the program and you know it it’s a fun thing I never thought that I would, you know, we have I’ll give you a couple examples like we got Patrick Bomba who’s at Duke, we got Darren

Harris, we got Ben H, we got Hammond at uh Virginia Tech. We got about nine guys right now that’s playing this year uh in division one basketball, you know, which it’s just good to be able to have guys live out their dream, you know, their dream is be able to play at the next level, but it’s it’s a lot different, but it’s fun. keeps me busy, keeps me active, you know, and um I just thought I was going to be just not, you know, doing something, but it’s it’s been a lot of fun. A lot of fun at Paul the Six.

Great. I um I’m keeping you longer than I told you. This has been fascinating. I’ve got a couple more questions. I call them my quick hitters. They’re they’re just fast questions, fast answers. What’s the most points you ever scored in a game at any level? 40 49. I think I scored 49 highest point. And actually, I think Fish I think Frieder was at that game. That’s what changed his mind that he I needed to come to Michigan.

And you’re probably mad you didn’t score 50. No, I would I didn’t. No, I wouldn’t. Yeah, I’m probably mad I didn’t score. I think it’s 40 48. Yeah. Who um who’s the best NBA player that you ever matched up with? I got two um players I always think about. One’s Bernard King and the other one’s Larry Bird. Those are probably the , 1 secondbest forwards I’ve seen, you know, play played against and had to guard, you know, at this level. They they were they were uh you scores. They were they were they were very good players at both ends of the floor, but scoring wise, they’re very hard to guard.

Best college venue that you had to play at? Hardest place to play? Hardest place to play? I think it was Indiana. I think that way that court sets and the sides and it’s different, you know. It’s it’s kind of different. That’s really different. A different look when you go in there and the rims are always tight tight. Really tight, you know. Um I think that that was it. Um that was probably it. Probably Indiana.

Do you remember your first NBA paycheck and what did you buy? What I remember most about my NBA paycheck was this thing called taxes and FICA. [laughter] That’s what I sp. , 1 secondYeah. Who’s this FA guy getting this money out of my check? You know, you know, you don’t even think about that. You didn’t think about taxes. You know, you say, “I’m going to get this my money.” Then next thing you know, they got taxes. I said, “Oh, didn’t tell me that they was going to be taking this much out of out of my check.” But I I think I bought a condo. I think I bought a condo in Southfield. I think that’s the first purchase I bought um for myself was I bought a condo in Southfield. But uh but Fer was that was a different guy.

If you were going to play golf today, who’s who’s your your three other guys that that you would play with from Michigan? Oh, let me see. I know he’s pretty good. I like Mark Hughes is a pretty good golfer. I think he’s a good guy. I play with Mark. I probably play with Cazzie. And I know Rudy plays um then who would be the last guy that I play with?

probably Britter Wham and Brit I hear he just he’s just talks nonstop though, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He just talks he he hits it pretty good at times. But way would probably be the he he’d be my my fourth fourth guy. So those uh who’s the most famous person that you’ve met? Wow, that’s a good one. I mean, you know, did you talk about basketball people?

Um, I I I I had so many good people to meet basketball, but I I went outside the basketball thing. I was I was playing golf and I met Usher on the golf course. It’s kind of It’s kind of neat. It’s kind of neat cuz we’re in Las Vegas, right? And we’re, you know, it’s hot as heck out there. And I come in, I was done and um see this little short guy over there playing, you know, and I was like, “That’s Usher.” So I go over to him and uh and you know introduce myself and to get a you know to sell. He takes a selfie. So it was Usher. I think I met Usher at in Vegas on the golf course.

Yeah. Who is the toughest Big Ten player that you had to face? Wow. Toughest Big Ten player. Yeah. I think my toughest guy was always and and I and I think about I didn’t have to guard Magic that much so it wasn’t that I guarded Greg. Greg was pretty tough. I think it was Greg. Mike it was either uh what’s the name that played for Purdue or Michael Thompson at the time.

Um what’s the big fellow name that played at Purdue? Uh Joe Barry Carroll. Joe Barry Carroll. Yeah, cuz he was so big. I mean, he was he was big, you know, and I had to guard him a couple times cuz my size was he was the big, you know, scored a lot, you know, he was tough in there. And I always say me and Greg Kelser battled. I think me and Greg had the the best battles in high school. And I I’ll give you a last story, Jim, the story.

So, I didn’t say this. So, we were about to play Michigan State and I had a friend, young lady friend, and she had called me on the phone talking about, “We going to beat y’all.” And I was talking and she said, “We going to beat y’all.” And uh I was like, “Y’all ain’t going to beat us.” And and I and I see that boy get cuss. I’mma score. I’m going to score 20 on it. I’m just talking about she said I said, “What do you think?” I said, “He know who I am.” And on the other on the same phone as Greg. So after wife says, “Well, I’ll see you tomorrow.” I said, “Well, I’ll see you tomorrow.” So [laughter] it was got to me. So that, you know, that was a funny thing because I thought about that. I said, “We,” she kind of set me up, you know, I was just talking about him bad and then next thing you

know, we had to play the game. But, uh, you know, we we had some good battles. We had some good battles. hub as as um as a final question when you look back at your career numbers retired Olympics final four all of the things what what makes you most proud I think I always say the Olympics make me most proud of my of that part of my my career that makes me the proudest and I think being able to pick a school and if I had to do it again I would pick Michigan again because the experience I had there is, you know, it’s unreplaceable. You know, the friends I made, the teammates, you know, because you think about Tim, you know, the friends you make at college are on

your basketball teams are the ones you have forever. The friends you make in the pros are associates. Mhm. You know, they’re associates more. But you think about the teammates, you know, you you had your teammates that you you spent that time those four years with at Michigan. That’s that’s a a bond building that’s never going to be separated, you know, and you think about that.

Well, I I can’t thank you enough, not only for joining the podcast, but for being a positive influence on me. I I will never forget um back my freshman year, we um we went to Chrysler for our first workout and they told us, “The Pistons are here.” And and I wanted to play against you so bad. and I learned a lot. I I was nervous playing against you, but I was excited to play against you, too, because of, you know, the the relationship we had and the kind of career you had. You’ve been a great role model and I’m very fortunate to call you a friend.

Thank you, Tam. And, you know, we go way back and like you said, from the camp all the way to now. And, you know, it’s good to see you doing well and I wish you nothing but the best in the future. You and your family. Just take care, my man. Thanks, Hub. Go Blue. Go blue. If you like this kind of content, please like, share, follow, and subscribe.]