A Timely Wake Up Call for Michigan Basketball. Everything they need to improve upon. Go Blue Hoops

[Hail Media Group presents Go Blue Hoops, where Michigan basketball’s past, present, and future all come together in one show. Hosted by former Wolverine great, 10-year NBA veteran, and longtime ESPN and NBC college basketball analyst Tim McCormick.

Each episode goes beyond the box scores, from championship memories and recruiting stories to sharp breakdowns of the season ahead. Insight. Legacy. Michigan basketball. This is Go Blue Hoops.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Go Blue Hoops podcast, episode number 56.

I come here with some great news because we’re 144 hours from the opening of the college basketball season, as Michigan goes ahead to defend its national championship.

Before we get started, I want to, as always, thank our sponsors. The Go Blue Hoops podcast is presented by the leaders and best at Michigan Medicine. There’s a difference between an answer and a Michigan answer. To find your Michigan answer, visit MichiganAnswers.org.

Really appreciate Michigan Medicine. Thanks so much. I had a chance last week to go to their opening in Troy. It was fascinating. This is a high-powered group, and I know, as someone who lives in Oakland County, that I feel very fortunate. Michigan Medicine is right in my backyard now.

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Special thanks to Valiant. Special thanks to Knight’s Steakhouse, the best steaks in Ann Arbor, a five-minute walk from the Diag. Next time you’re on campus, make sure you look at stopping there for an unbelievable meal.

Also, special thanks to the Ann Arbor Homegirl Real Estate Group with eXp Realty. Sheri Weintraub is the lady in charge. She knows real estate, and she also knows what it means to Go Blue.

All right, so Michigan loses to Houston, which I thought was the perfect matchup. One of the top three, four, five teams in all of college basketball. They exposed some things that we’re going to talk about on the Go Blue Hoops podcast.

Also, a very special treat. I think this is kind of unique and unusual. Back in 1979, I was a high school senior, and I was recruited by Bob Nichols at Toledo. They came into my house for a visit, and he brought his new, young, upstart assistant coach, Greg Kampe.

We hit it off, and we’ve been friends ever since. He’s going to come on the podcast and break down Michigan. He’s going to talk about the game plan, the game keys. Very unique to have an opposing coach come in and share his thoughts. I think the world of Greg Kampe. I think you will, too.

All right, so Michigan loses to Houston, and I saw some things that—look, I wasn’t concerned, but some things have to get better.

So I decided to go to practice yesterday, and I sat there with an all-time legend, Phil Hubbard. The first guy to have his number retired at Michigan was Cazzie Russell. Number two was Rudy Tomjanovich. Number three, number 35 for Michigan, the great, great Phil Hubbard.

We sat and talked about the team, their potential, last year. We talked about the areas where Michigan must get better, and Phil, without hesitation, said, “If this team wants to be good, they’ve got to have more physicality on the defensive end of the court.”

We talked and shared ideas, and it was really great to do that.

So what was so amazing about last year in Michigan basketball? It was unforgettable. It was the best year in program history. Dusty May was one of the best coaches I’ve ever been around.

Michigan was powered by three lottery picks, with plenty of support from Nimari Burnett, Will Tschetter, and Roddy Gayle.

The defense was fascinating to me. It grew as the season went on. But one year ago, in an exhibition loss to Cincinnati and struggles against TCU and Wake Forest, the defense wasn’t that good. Then something clicked. We will talk about that today as well.

This reminds me a little bit of 2024. Michigan football won a national championship. They beat Washington. It was one of the great days of all of our lives, and I feel the same about the basketball team.

I’m not saying that this current basketball team is elite or a contender to hang a banner in Crisler. But I will say I am impressed with their potential.

They have immense talent and depth. They have star power at guard. They have size and talent at the power positions, and they’re solid on the wing. They have plenty of capable shooters. They can go 11 deep.

But versus Houston, they got beat by a team that’s probably a No. 1 or No. 2 seed.

As I look forward to this podcast, I’m going to share some things I learned from the exhibition season.

Also, you may not know this: Greg Kampe wants to beat Michigan so badly on Monday, but he does have a deep-down love for the University of Michigan. Why? His father played on the 1947 national championship team for Fritz Crisler, and his brother also played for Bo Schembechler and was a Big Ten champion.

We’re going to dive into that question with Greg Kampe. We’re going to talk to Greg and get his game keys and some of the most important things we can look for in that game.

Okay. I was completely impressed with Houston. I thought they controlled Michigan throughout most of the game. Am I concerned, frustrated, or pessimistic? Absolutely not.

Do I think this Michigan team is as good as last year? Absolutely not.

Again, if I’m looking for a comparison for the potential of this Michigan team, I go back to 2024–25. That was the Michigan team led by Danny Wolf, Vlad Goldin, and Tre Donaldson. They won 26 games.

I think this team can get to 26 wins. They played some excellent basketball, and I see this team being a little bit similar at this point.

If Michigan stays healthy and grows as a team, this team can challenge for a Big Ten title. I still think Illinois is the favorite. I think UCLA and Michigan State are right there. But this Michigan team can play in the Sweet 16 and beyond. Twenty-seven, maybe 28 wins.

They’re going to have to get a lot better on the defensive end for that to happen.

But first, let’s talk a little bit about the Michigan–Houston game. It was wonderful to see Van Andel Arena packed. My kids both live in Grand Rapids, and I have a strong feeling about the city, so it was very good to see so many Michigan fans there.

Houston plays fantastic defense. They have plenty of scoring options. They’re so well coached, and they play the most physical brand of basketball anywhere in college.

Eighty-three to 66. They were more physical than Michigan. They were dominant on the glass, highly efficient on offense. They were clearly the better team.

As I review this game, Houston was the perfect opponent for an exhibition game.

Remember Michigan’s record right now? Zero and zero. It didn’t count. It didn’t happen. Now it’s time to look forward.

Michigan was delivered the perfect wake-up call in this battle. The Cougars are a test of manhood. They’re not going to let you run your offense very well. If you like to go right, they’re going to force you left. They contest shots very, very well.

Mike Boynton and the Michigan coaches have the players’ attention right now. The players are going to listen to what’s being said.

That’s why, when I went to practice yesterday, right after their film session, they came out—and I’ve seen, I believe, 11 practices this year—this was the most confrontational, the most intense. Everybody was very excited because they know it gets real a week from Monday.

Some observations. Let’s talk a little bit about Michigan’s guard play.

The Houston Cougars’ guards dominated the matchup with Trey McKenney and Elliot Cadeau. Those two have a massive amount of responsibility on their shoulders.

Last year, they were support guys. Nobody had huge expectations. The frontcourt was dominant, and that’s why Michigan won so many games last year.

Quite frankly, as a national champion, you’ve now got a target on your back. Everybody is going to give you their best effort. They don’t want you to succeed. The scouting reports are going to be heavily influenced by stopping Cadeau and McKenney.

With that responsibility, you’ve got to understand that national pundits and experts are saying Michigan has maybe the best backcourt in the country. Well, Houston’s guards hear that, and they want to prove they’re better.

I also think that, with that target, Michigan’s guards were not ready to play from the start. That’s very much unlike them because they both get after it on a consistent basis. I didn’t see the same energy from Cadeau and Trey McKenney.

Once again, Elliot Cadeau has got to learn how to stay out of foul trouble. In the six games we’ve seen them—the three in Europe and the three exhibitions, and once again, those don’t count—Elliot Cadeau had 27 fouls.

I counted up 27 fouls in six games. He just fouled. The coaches have told me they talk to him nonstop about being a physical defender without fouling.

Once again, it’s not a big deal. I’m not concerned. But this is what Michigan’s coaches are saying to Cadeau and McKenney: Be the best players. Compete. Win. Because everybody else is going to follow them.

Next thing I’m concerned about: Three-point shooting can be a real strength for this team. Elliot Cadeau, Trey McKenney, and Quinn Costello are pure shooters. Extremely dangerous. If they have space, they should shoot.

But the rest of the team took 17 threes. Shooting threes is a privilege that must be earned.

For the big guys, if you grab seven or eight rebounds, block some shots, and get some post action, then I say step out there and take a shot. You’ve earned it.

But too many Michigan players, I believe, are trying to establish themselves as three-point shooters. I didn’t see enough post play. I didn’t see enough driving and attacking the rim.

I also thought this could be a real strength, but you get threes after you go inside and swing it side to side. I always call them five-pass possessions.

If you hit your guy, he moves the ball across, throws it inside, and kicks it out, you get better shots with your feet set.

Don’t launch threes because there’s nothing else to do. Work your offense, and that should come in the second half of the offense.

All right. Also, I thought in the second half there was some real slippage on the defensive end. Michigan gave up 45 points in the second half. Too many layups, poor rebounding position. The Cougars’ guards were dominant.

The more physical and tough team won that game. I’m not surprised because that’s what Houston does, and I do think they’ll be a No. 1 or No. 2 seed.

But as I said, I’m not concerned. There’s a lot of chemistry that has to happen. New roles, new players. To be a good defense, everybody has got to buy in.

If you look back one year ago, Michigan struggled in the exhibition games on the defensive end. St. John’s scored a ton of points. Cincinnati scored almost 100 and beat Michigan. So I do have hope that this team can really improve on defense.

The rotation is a really interesting topic to me. Michigan played 10 guys double-figure minutes versus Houston. That’s not going to happen once the games start and get real.

Maybe against a team you would expect Michigan to beat by 20-plus points, you can get into your rotation a little bit deeper. But if Michigan’s playing a hotly contested game, you’re probably only going to see nine in the rotation.

That creates a tough problem. I think Oscar Goodman is probably the 10th guy in a nine-man rotation, and he’s had some really good minutes. He was one of the offensive sparks from three against Houston. That was probably the best I’ve seen him play.

Joseph Hartman also—he’s probably the 11th man. He’s played some really good minutes and shown versatility.

But that’s what happens on good teams. It’s a great problem to have a little bit too much depth because, if somebody goes down with an injury, you’ve got guys ready to step up.

Another guy I want to see more from is Ricky Liburd. I think he’s got great potential. He’s got an NBA body and athleticism. He defends. He can make shots, and I’ve seen him make shots everywhere except in games.

He did not play in Europe because of a hip injury, and in his three exhibition games, it looks like he’s on a minutes restriction.

I think he has great potential. I think he will be the backup for Roddy Gayle at the three, and I do think he will win games for Michigan this year. We just haven’t seen it yet. I think we will.

Also, Jalen Reed still looks a little bit rusty, but I do see him making progress. You don’t tear your ACL and your Achilles in back-to-back years and not take a while to get back.

I also want to remind everybody that, when we first found out he was coming to play at Michigan, the projection was that he probably wouldn’t be ready for the start of the season, but he would be ready for the start of the Big Ten season.

Well, that’s not the case. He’s playing full-go every practice, every game right now.

What he brings to the table is an old-school versatility. He’s strong. He’s tough. As a comparison, you know how Charles Barkley used to back his way into the low post? That’s one thing Jalen Reed can do.

I think he might be their best pure post scorer because Estrella and Thiam like to roam on the perimeter so much. That’s not Jalen Reed’s game. He wants to post up. He backs his way in. Very capable passer. I think opponents will want to double-team him, and he’s the kind of guy who can make them score.

So Michigan has quality depth. There’s a lot to like about six through 10. One through five, Michigan is as good as anybody in the Big Ten.

The depth will have to be established. The best way to do that: “Give me one minute, Coach, and I’ll turn it into two. If you give me two minutes, I’m going to work so hard that you’re going to want me on the court for three.”

That’s a good strategy.

Another bit of optimism: I was really excited to see Roddy Gayle as Michigan’s best player against Houston. He had 14 points. As always, good defense. He shot well from three.

He deserves success. He’s had a really tough last couple of months, and it really appears to me—even though the coaches all say the same thing, that they have no idea what’s going to happen—that he’s in a position to play a full season.

Also, at the four and the five, the power positions, with Thiam and Estrella, I think these two guys are playing really well. There are a couple of things I want more from them.

I also think that, because Houston’s big men are so athletic, it’s a tough matchup at the four and the five versus Houston.

I didn’t see Thiam and Estrella run as hard in transition as I think they’re capable of. It kind of reminds me of last year about this time, when Aday Mara was struggling.

I’m not sure what his injury was, but he didn’t play in both exhibition games. He played limited minutes early. What I saw was the coaches really getting on him about his conditioning. They didn’t think he was in the best shape he could be.

As the season went on, he improved in that area. Toward the end of the year, he was running up and down the court. He had a huge transition bucket against UConn in the national championship game.

I think you’re going to see the same thing from Thiam and Estrella, that they can be real factors in transition.

All right. I want to talk a little bit about the three freshmen who are not really in the rotation right now: Joseph Hartman, Marcus Moller—he is so darn long. He can shoot threes. I like his potential—and Malachi Brown.

Once again, those three players are going to get a chance to play this year. The reason I believe that is because of the new NCAA rule in which every player’s got five years to play five seasons of basketball. So there’s no more redshirt.

If you get a big lead, say, against the Golden Grizzlies from Oakland, you’re going to see those guys the last five minutes of the game.

You may remember when Michigan played Oakland last year, they had 69 points at halftime. That’s Michigan’s best half ever. They ended up with 121 points, a very comfortable lead.

That would be the kind of game where those three freshmen are going to get five minutes to show what they can do. It’s a great development opportunity for them.

All right, a few more thoughts before we get on with Coach Greg Kampe.

Pick-and-roll defense is going to be critical for Michigan. I’ve seen three predominant strategies so far.

Switching one through four. It appears that, against some matchups, they might be able to switch one through five. Still a work in progress.

But the other thing that was interesting to me is that Estrella does not look like he’s as good as Thiam at covering pick-and-rolls on the perimeter with smaller players.

Moustapha Thiam is fabulous at being able to switch and contain the ball, but he’s also really good in drop coverage.

What exactly is drop coverage? You hear that a lot, but you may not know what it is.

In the pick-and-roll, the four or the five, rather than switching onto a guard at 30 feet from the basket, goes under the screen. They talk their man through, and they wait in the lane to cover up the rim and protect the paint.

I think both Thiam and Estrella can do that very, very well.

The other thing Michigan was doing in its pick-and-roll coverage is something really simple, and that’s the key to defense: switch big pick-and-rolls and let the guards switch guard pick-and-rolls.

That’s something we’re going to have to watch really closely as the season starts and gets going.

I also think Moustapha Thiam is Michigan’s most important player this year.

Look, I’ve seen Trey, Elliot, and Roddy on the biggest stage, and they shine. I really think Moustapha Thiam has the ability to be a star this year.

I think he could average 14 or 15 points a game, seven or eight rebounds, and provide the best rim protection in the Big Ten.

I just want to see him step up his game and become a real focal point of the offense. He’s really good roaming, but too often, I see Estrella and Moustapha Thiam hanging out on the perimeter. I think they could be so much more effective going inside.

That’ll make the guards better. That will give the team so much more confidence if those guys can become more focused.

Also, in transition, I want to see more than I’ve seen so far, especially with Thiam and Estrella. Both have great speed. They’re two of the fastest players on the team.

I also like when Kenny Noland comes in for Elliot Cadeau. Good ball security. He distributes it well. But I really think his best opportunity to be productive on offense is, regardless of what happens, push the ball up the court. Up the tempo. He seems really comfortable in that position.

Last, Houston is historically tough to beat. They don’t mess around. They delivered the perfect wake-up call, the perfect message.

As I watched practice on Tuesday, I can tell you without question that Coach Mike Boynton’s message during their film session was about attacking on defense, rebounding with ferocity, and making harder cuts on offense.

It was a really valuable lesson that came at the perfect time for Michigan.

Hey, Michigan fans, we will be right back. But first, a word from our sponsor.

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All right, everybody. Let’s talk about Michigan opening up against Oakland University on Monday at Crisler Center.

We’re indeed fortunate that our guest today is Oakland Golden Grizzlies coach Greg Kampe, a man who really doesn’t need much of an introduction here in Michigan.

The dean of all college basketball coaches. Forty-three seasons at Oakland. Seven hundred thirty-one wins. In 2024, he stunned the basketball world by beating Kentucky. Fourteen wins versus high-major programs, five NBA players, and most importantly, he is my very good friend.

Greg, thanks so much for joining us.

Well, Tim, thanks for having me on. As your fans should know, Tim and I go back a long way. I actually was Tim’s assistant coach for AAU basketball when our kids played together, and I never wanted to be an assistant again after having been Tim’s assistant.

I can imagine. Well, you kept trying to call plays to get your sons, [names unclear], shots. That was probably a smart move.

Yeah.

Well, we go back even before that because, in 1979, you had your first assistant coaching job at Toledo for Bob Nichols, and you did a home visit with my parents. I think we’ve been friends ever since.

It’s crazy. That’s 50-some years ago, or close to 50 years now, that I’ve known you and watched you play, play in the pros, what you did at Michigan, and then become friends. It’s kind of a cool story.

Now here I am on your podcast, so let’s say something crazy about this game so people can get mad and pay attention to it on Monday night.

I like that idea.

So you play Michigan. What can you share about your team and your expectations for the upcoming season?

Well, opening night’s always a crapshoot, especially in this day and age of the portal. I know we might talk about that a little bit, but when you have nine or 10 new players every year, who really knows?

We had our summer. We went to Canada. The competition there wasn’t great. We played some exhibition games, but we don’t even prep in the exhibition games. We just show up and play. We really want our kids to learn on the run.

My big thing with exhibition games is: Can you take what a coach wants from a timeout to the floor? Then, how do we fix that during the course of the season?

Because in March, if a team can’t take coaching—and what I mean by that is they can’t listen to a play and go out, or at an important juncture of the game, when you come out of a timeout or a media timeout, you make an adjustment and have to do this, and they don’t do it—that separates winning and losing at every level.

I think most coaches during exhibition season just try to begin that process.

Then, all of a sudden, now it’s the real season. Michigan’s hanging the national championship banner. They’ve got a new coach. They’ve got maybe the best backcourt in the country. Their fan base is on fire. They’re defending national champions.

How are they going to react to opening night?

On the other side of the coin, how are we going to react to it? We’re playing Michigan. We’re going to watch them hang their national championship banner.

We’ve got a chance. This is the thing I’ve tried to preach to my guys: This is a great thing for us because it’s in our state, and you get to be involved in the media. This is a game everybody in the state is going to pay attention to, and it’s a special night because they’re raising their national championship banner.

Emotionally and physically, how do we react to that? Do we come out in awe of it and get our rear ends beat into the ground because we can’t believe we’re here? Or are we going to come out, compete, make some shots, and make this thing a game?

We’re capable of doing that. We’re capable of playing, and we’re capable of winning, Tim. It wouldn’t surprise me if we won. As you said, we’ve done that 14 times.

We’re also capable of losing like we did last year, 121–78.

I know you’re capable of winning because I was there broadcasting the game at the arena when you beat LaVell Blanchard and Michigan. What do you remember about that game?

Well, we really made shots that night. I think it was 97–91 or 92 or something like that.

We started two freshmen, one who would end up being an All-American, and he hardly scored. The other freshman, Kelly Williams, nobody had ever heard of, and he had 19 in the game.

LaVell Blanchard, I believe, was a freshman. I think it was his first game. There was a lot of hype going into that game because of him, and it just went our way. The ball went in the basket.

When the ball goes in the basket, you cover a lot of bad things defensively and offensively. If it goes in, man, you’re the smartest coach in the world. When it doesn’t go in—the same sets, the same plays, the same actions—you’re just an idiot.

That night, the ball went in, and it was a lot of fun for us. Because of my history and tradition with Michigan and my family, it was one of my favorite days ever in this business.

Well, you beat Michigan. I think Bernard Robinson was a freshman. You’ve had 14 wins against high-major teams. You beat Cade Cunningham and Mike Boynton when they were at Oklahoma State, but everybody remembers the Kentucky victory in the NCAA Tournament.

Jack Gohlke became a household name, made 10 threes. Did you feel like you could beat Kentucky before the game?

I thought it was a good matchup. When you have a championship-level team like we did, you think you can win any game.

We thought we could go to the Final Four, and we lost in overtime to the team that did.

Winning builds this shield around you, and you know this as a player. The more you win—and that year, we won at Xavier. We lost at Ohio State on a bad call by an official. Those things happen once in a while.

We took Illinois, who was an Elite Eight team that year—we led for 30, 32 minutes at Illinois. So we knew we were pretty darn good.

They had a real belief that we could go in, and I thought it was a good matchup because Kentucky led the nation in three-point shooting and three-point shots made. Even though they had three seven-footers, they weren’t really good inside the paint, and our zone can guard the three.

There are nights we give up a lot of threes, but that’s usually when we’re playing against teams that are good inside, and you have to make decisions in games.

We knew going into the Kentucky game that we could guard the three. The big question was, could we rebound with them? When you have Trey Townsend, you can do those things.

We’re going to dive into the Michigan–Oakland game shortly, but I do think Michigan fans are going to like hearing about your connection to the University of Michigan through your dad and your brother. Can you share that?

Yeah. I grew up in Michigan’s football stadium. Every Saturday, from the time I could breathe until I went to college to play football.

My dad played on the 1947 national championship team. He and my mother, on their 50th anniversary, the reunion game in 1997, were the people in charge of the reunion.

I can remember those players being at my house when I was a little kid. The Elliotts, Bump Elliott and Pete Elliott, and Dom Tomasi. All these great Michigan names. I’m playing ping-pong with them as a fifth grader or fourth grader.

My dad was as Go Blue and as Michigan as any person.

My favorite story about my dad: He coached football in Michigan at Arthur Hill High School for a while. Then he got out of it, and we moved to a small town in Ohio, Defiance, Ohio.

Our mailbox—you remember the old-fashioned mailbox, just one stick with the box on it, right?

Yeah.

My dad painted that as the winged helmet, kind of that thing behind you up there. That was the head of the mailbox, the winged helmet.

The day after the Ohio State football game every year, no matter who won, somebody would come by with their car and run the mailbox over.

My dad didn’t get mad. Never. We’re in Ohio, you know. He would go out, get his tools, and fix that mailbox every year, no matter what. I’ve got to believe it was the same person who ran it over.

The first word I ever said—my dad was so proud—was “Michigan.”

Then my brother played football in the early ’70s for Bo. He was a defensive back. He played on the team when Lantry missed a field goal. He played on the team when they voted Ohio State to go to the Rose Bowl instead of Michigan.

His last year was Rick Leach’s freshman year. They could go to a bowl game, and they went to the Orange Bowl.

So Michigan is in my blood.

The first time I ever coached a game against the University of Michigan, my dad had passed away, and I wore his Rose Bowl ring at the game. We got our butts kicked.

That Rose Bowl ring is in my ring closet now with all the championship rings we’ve ever won here at Oakland. That Rose Bowl ring’s right there with them.

Well, the fact that you’re a great Michigan man makes this even more special.

Let’s take a dive into the matchup. You opened your season against Michigan last year. Michigan scored 69 in a half, which I think is still a record, and 121 for the game. What do you remember about that matchup?

Yeah, how I’ve helped the program. That’s it. I mean, look at that.

What I remember most is walking off the floor. Of course, every coach is calling me to find out about Michigan—the coaches in the Big Ten and the coaches Michigan’s going to play later.

I said the same thing to them. I said, “We played well.” I thought we played well, and we lost by 50. We scored 78 points.

Yeah.

We scored 78 points. They made 19 threes. They were so big. I remember one of my players saying, “I’ve never played against a guy that big,” about Mara.

They could send Mara to the glass against us and run everybody out, and they’re throwing the ball the length of the floor over the top of us to Yaxel, who’s 6-foot-9 or whatever, catching the ball.

Then you’ve got to remember, they’re 23, 24 years old.

A guy from The Washington Post called me afterward and said, “Is this the best Michigan team ever?”

I said, “Well, it’s kind of an unfair question because, when the Fab Five played, they were 18, 19 years old. Imagine if they played at Michigan when they were 23 or 24, like Yaxel and those guys.”

Of course this is the best Michigan team ever. But if you would have taken that Fab Five at 24—if you could have played the Fab Five at 23, 24 years old—nobody would have come within 50 points of them.

It was just a great basketball team, and we knew it. We knew it walking off the floor.

What established it was—I think we lost by 40. What, 121–78?

Yeah. Forty-two or 43 points.

A couple of weeks later, they beat Gonzaga by 50. I told my team after that, “I told you. You’re going to sit back and say that’s one of the greatest teams you ever got to play against.”

Villanova coach Kevin Willard, at halftime when Michigan beat them, said to his staff, “That’s the national champs right there.”

Did you feel like that when you played them on opening night?

The only thing I questioned—and again, I’m an old-fashioned, old-school coach—was how they took care of the basketball.

Mm-hmm.

They had this laissez-faire attitude with the basketball. They threw it everywhere.

I thought, on a night when they couldn’t make shots, if they threw it around and turned it over, they were going to get beat in the tournament.

But I said they were the best team in the country. I don’t think there was a question they were the best team in the country. Could they win the championship? I didn’t know.

As you prep for a team, look for their weaknesses, and watch them, I try to be as open and honest as I can be.

Sure enough, I think they lost to Wisconsin at home, where Wisconsin made everything, they couldn’t make a shot, and they turned it over a bunch. I thought, “See, that’s what I’m talking about.”

But they learned from it, and they were spectacular in the tournament. Nobody came close.

So, yeah, I didn’t say it at the time, but I knew they were the best team.

When I look back a year ago, Michigan gets beat by Cincinnati in an exhibition game, gives up 96 to St. John’s in an exhibition game. The defense struggled against TCU and struggled against Wake.

The defense really seemed like it picked up. Is that something you can put a finger on in terms of chemistry and how long it takes? Because this year’s Michigan team is probably going to have the same challenges.

Well, I see fans on Twitter, social media, and all that kind of stuff panicking already.

Now we can play three exhibition games. Now we can play each other, where five years ago, you were playing Division II teams and foreign teams.

Now that we’re playing each other and there are real scores, people are in a panic.

Listen to me: No one gives a crap about an exhibition game. We don’t as coaches. The players don’t. They’re dry runs.

We played Cincinnati last night. We didn’t even prep for them. My players didn’t even know who—

When we play Michigan on Monday night, my guys are going to know what hand they untie their whatever with. We’re going to know everything about them.

We’re going to know if they shoot it off one dribble, if they shoot it off four dribbles. We are going to prep.

For the first 18 minutes last night, we didn’t even run a play against Cincinnati. We’re just out there playing, getting the kinks out.

Exhibition scores mean absolutely nothing. Think about that. You lost to Cincinnati last year, and they didn’t even make the tournament, and you won the national championship.

I had three guys not play last night. Now, that doesn’t mean that, if we played Cincinnati in a regular game, they wouldn’t beat us by more. Maybe they would. But it doesn’t mean much.

I think, in this day and age of the transfer portal, defense is what takes the longest to learn.

In the old days, you didn’t turn your roster over until they’d played for you for four years. I thought offense was harder to teach.

Mm-hmm.

You teach the basic principles of your defense. You play it. You don’t accept anything but the effort and the things it takes.

Nowadays, it’s more of an offensive-minded game. The pick-and-roll is really, really prevalent. It’s pretty simplistic. Pick-and-roll is very simplistic if you have two really good players in it, and it’s hard to guard.

Defensive principles are hard because repetition is how you learn to defend. Repetition over and over in practice, over and over until they’re bored with it.

There’s that old statement: “We do this not to get it right. We do it so we never get it wrong.”

Right.

That’s what teaching defense is about. That’s why I think, in the game today, with the turnover of kids, it takes longer for defenses to get good.

Coach, I had a chance to broadcast your game last year at Milwaukee, and I was fascinated by your zone defense. I don’t think anybody else runs it like you.

What can our fans watch for in terms of whether the defense is working and how you attack it?

Well, again, you saw us in January or February, maybe February. Our defense is even worse early because it’s so complicated. It’s really complicated.

The team that beat Kentucky, we had three- or four-year guys out there. It just gets better the more you play it and the more you learn it.

It’s a “matchup zone,” and based on what you do, Tim—what Michigan’s going to do—is how we’re going to defend.

It’s really good at taking the ball screen away, which is one of the reasons I’m sold on it and will stick with it, even though, with new players every year, it’s hard to teach.

It’s really, really difficult to get ball-screen action against us.

Basically, what happens—and it happened last night in the exhibition game—is most teams that don’t play against us have two days to prep. All their zone stuff doesn’t work against it.

The Power Five teams end up—and you’ll probably see Michigan do this if it’s a close game—with four out and one in. They’ll skip the ball and drive it. They’ll try to isolate us one-on-one and get Roddy Gayle, Cadeau, or McKenney, who are some of the best athletes in the country, one-on-one with mid-major basketball players.

Then we’re going to be in a bit of trouble.

If they run offense against us, we’ll be there. It’s really good. It’s hard to score against. It’s hard to run offense against because it’s so unique, and you don’t see it. It’s a hard prep.

But what you saw last year in the Michigan game—they scored 69 in the first half, but I’ll tell you, 49 of those came in transition.

They get a miss, or we turn it over, and they come up the floor and fire a three. They made everything. Nineteen threes.

They throw over the top of us to a wide-open guy. We’re not getting back. They’re faster. They’re stronger. They did that to a lot of teams last year, but they really did it to us.

Have you watched that game tape from last year?

Oh, sure.

Yeah. What would you have done differently?

Couldn’t have done anything differently.

Yeah.

Mara would get a rebound, turn, and throw it 45 feet. You could say, “Well, go take Yaxel away so they can’t throw it to him.”

Well, if you shoot a shot, we’re going to check everybody out and then release to our fast break.

They didn’t have to do that because they had so much size. Mara, at 7-foot-1 or 7-foot-3, was bigger than everybody. He could reach and get a rebound over here, and he could get it over there.

He’d come down with it, turn, and throw it. They’ve got 6-foot-9 running this lane and 6-foot-5 running this lane, and Cadeau coming across. Cadeau would catch it and throw it up in the air, and we couldn’t guard it.

We just weren’t athletic or fast enough to guard it. They were a great team.

Yeah. Is that the best defensive team you’ve ever played against?

On that night, we scored 78 points, but every miss we had turned into a fast break on the other end.

Isaac Garrett had a really good game for us. He threw a couple of lucky shots in. We might have only had 62 points if he didn’t have the game he had. He made some shots he didn’t make the rest of the year.

So, yeah, they were just really good. They won the national championship, and they were a team for the ages. What did they do to Arizona in the semifinal game?

That wasn’t Oakland.

Yeah, that wasn’t Oakland. That was Arizona, 31–2 or whatever Arizona was, and it was 20-something at halftime. They were a great basketball team.

Yeah. Let’s dive into this report a little bit. Let’s say you started game prep today. What are three things you would tell your players we have to emphasize if we’re going to have a chance?

Well, the biggest thing is we have got to keep the ball out of the middle of our zone.

In many cases, you want the ball to go into the middle of the zone, but against Michigan, you don’t want it going there because they can get you one-on-one.

The zone is beneficial because, if they throw it to you, Tim, there’s going to be a guy on you, a guy to your left, and a guy to your right. If you drive a gap, somebody’s running to a shooter, and you’re going to have to skip the ball.

If the ball gets into the middle and can be thrown to either side, now we can’t do that. Their one-on-one guys—Cadeau, McKenney, Gayle, and those guys—we can’t guard them.

You’ll see us. We’re mid-major bodies. We’re mid-major kids. We’re not Power Five-type athletes. So we have to have help, and we have to keep the ball on one side of the floor.

One thing I’d really like to do, but I don’t think is going to work, is have a very soft press. We’ve got to score to do that.

But if we can get the ball to come across half court at the 21- or 22-second mark, then they start their offense, and it’s thrown across to a big, and Cadeau or McKenney has to go get it, then they set up their offense with 19 or 18 seconds on the shot clock, they’re only going to get one bite at the apple.

Right.

They’re not going to be able to go side to side, which hurts us.

Mm-hmm.

If we can do that and keep the ball out of the middle of the zone, then the biggest thing in this game will be defensive rebounding. We have to get their misses.

Last night against Cincinnati, we did that. They got a couple late when both teams were playing their walk-ons, but through the first 35 minutes, they only had five offensive rebounds.

Now, they didn’t miss a lot of shots. They only had 25 or 27 misses, but they only had five offensive rebounds.

If an Oakland can keep the offensive rebounding rate under 30 percent against a Power Five team—one in every four—you’ve got a chance to win. So we have to do that.

The third thing is we can’t turn the ball over, Tim. We just can’t turn it over. We turned it over 21 times last night.

You can’t turn it over against Michigan. If you turn it over against a team like Michigan, putting it into football terminology, it’s a pick-six. It’s a pick-six.

I went to a high school football game the other day, Tim, and a good friend of mine’s the coach. He was down two touchdowns and hadn’t run a play yet.

The team they were playing threw a 70-yard touchdown pass on the first offensive play of the game. Then they fumbled the kickoff, and the other team picked it up and scored. They had run two plays, and it was 12–0.

If that happens, we’re in big trouble. We cannot give up the pick-sixes.

Yeah. Don’t let your guys fumble the ball.

Greg, I think it’s interesting. This is the first game of the season, but you have three game tapes of Michigan playing against teams in Europe. You’ve got three exhibition tapes.

How do you evaluate Michigan’s personnel from what you’ve seen so far?

Well, the veterans are easy. We’ve got everything on Cadeau.

One of the things we’re able to do with the zone is—it’s such a unique defense—we know what Mike has done against our zone because we played Michigan the last two years, and we played Mike three times when he was at Oklahoma State.

So we know how he’s going to attack the zone.

We’ve had the whole summer. During practice, we’ll have a team defensive segment, and our team doesn’t even know our scout team’s running Mike Boynton’s offense.

At least once a week, in a normal practice, nobody out there knew what we were doing except our staff. We were running stuff Michigan’s going to run against us.

The big thing that really hurt us in a Dusty May offense was we gave up way too many straight-line passes.

What I mean by a straight-line pass is, if you’re trying to keep the ball on one side of the floor, for them to get it to the other side, they’ve got to throw it way up in the air to get over. They can’t throw a straight-line pass, or a straight-line pass to the corner for a corner three.

We really have to do a good job of knowing that.

I’m sure Mike’s going to do some of what Dusty did, too, because he saw the success it had against us last year.

But again, I go back to the real success against us: transition. The transition offense.

If we can slow the game down, we’ll have a chance. If it’s a fast-paced game, we’re not going to have any chance at all.

You’ve mentioned Coach Boynton several times. What do you like about his system? What do you like about his approach to the game?

He’s a great guy. He’s really, really a good person.

The fact that we played all those times when he was at Oklahoma State, then when he was let go and got to Michigan, I stayed in touch with him. We text back and forth, and I just like him.

He’s a good person, and I think he’s an unbelievable recruiter. I think he really meshes with his players. He connects with players, and I think that’s his biggest strength, his connection with the guys he coaches.

I know Cade and he are still tight. He’s just a good guy, and I’m a coach’s advocate. I know how hard this is. This is a really, really difficult business. Winning is very hard.

He was a big part of them winning. Talk to Dusty. Dusty will tell you he was a big part of them winning. But nobody’s going to remember that now.

Now it’s on his shoulders, and he’s got a lot of expectations to fulfill. He’s at the University of Michigan, and he’s got a lot of expectations to fulfill.

I’m going to do everything on Monday night to try to hurt his [sentence trails off]. Then, as soon as that game’s over, I’m going to cheer like hell for him and hope good things happen.

Greg, your journey has been really interesting to me. You took over in ’84 at Oakland, Division II. You took them to Division I.

What has changed the most since you took over? What are some things that have stayed the same?

Well, what has stayed the same is a good question, Tim, because people don’t ask that anymore.

Everybody’s upset about what’s going on. Everybody wants to know what it used to be. Nobody asks what stayed the same. That’s a great question.

What stays the same is the competition. The nerves. You still have to go out there on game day, and no matter what the circumstances are, you’ve got to compete.

The love of that, I think, in coaching—if you don’t love that, you don’t last in this business. I think that’s what drives many coaches.

The other thing that’s stayed the same is the connection between you and players.

This is a sad story, but I have an ex-player who’s on a ventilator right now. I just found out about it two nights ago. I made a phone call to a couple of his teammates, and for the last two days, the phone has been lighting up with people texting.

Just the camaraderie of what a team is, coaching that team, and being around those kids.

There are moments when you just hate them. You hate everything about it. There are moments when you love everything about it. It’s just life. It’s just like life, and those are your family. I think that’s the good of it.

There’s a lot of bad, too, just because things change, and you have to adapt if you want to stay in it. But I don’t like a lot of what’s going on.

I think players should have always made money, but what’s happening today, I just don’t think it’s what college sports is supposed to be, what amateur sports is supposed to be about.

Well, when you talk about the challenges of coaching players who are making more money than your assistant coaches, I remember a story you shared with me last year.

It had to do with the fact that, when the team brings their hands into the middle during a huddle and says, “Let’s go,” or whatever, you asked, “What word do you guys want to say?”

I think they said the word “family” or “team” or something like that. What was your response?

“We’re not doing that because we’re not a family. You’ve got to prove we’re a family.”

In this new day and age, I’m coaching guys for six to eight months. That’s it.

That’s the thing you’re supposed to say. Everybody gets “family,” “team,” whatever. No, you have to earn that.

You have to prove to me that we’re going to be a family, that we’re going to be a team, and that you’re not just here to grab as much money as you can and worry about yourself.

One thing we really preach to our players in this new day and age is that, in the summertime, everything I’m going to do and everything I want my staff to do is about you as an individual.

So, Tim, if you were playing for me, from the day you got on campus in June until September 26, the first day of official practice, everything we do, every drill we do—even though it’s a team drill—is about you.

How can I make you better? How can I help you reach your goals? How can I make Tim McCormick become the best version of Tim McCormick?

Then, when September 26 gets here, I don’t give a [expletive omitted in source] about Tim McCormick. It’s about how I can make Tim McCormick the best teammate he can be so we can win.

What’s Tim’s role? I worked all summer on trying to get you to be the best you can be, and now this is who you are. What role can I put you in, and how do you become a 10 at that role?

If that role is getting me nine rebounds, and you’re only going to shoot twice, you need to be a 10 at that role.

From September 26 until we lose our last game, there are no meetings about, “How much playing time am I going to get?” and “What do I need to do to score more?”

No. Everything from September 26 to the end is about the team.

They all know every decision I make is going to be team-oriented. Every decision I make in the summer is player-oriented.

I’ve said that and spoken enough about it that they know it. I’m hoping that, as you have to adapt in this business, this new way of doing things will help us become a team so we’re in the NCAA Tournament and go into that huddle and yell “family,” because we will be family.

On July 13 or 12 this year, I flew to Cancún on a Friday morning. On Friday night in Cancún, Xavier Hill-Mais got married.

There were seven players at that wedding who were on his team in 2016 and flew to Cancún. I flew there, went to the wedding, got up the next day, and flew home.

I don’t know if that’s ever going to happen again.

Did I want to go to Cancún? No. I’m sorry, Tim, I didn’t. But my guys were there. My family, my team, was there.

They were there to celebrate one of their teammates’ most important moments in his life, so I had to go.

I just don’t know if that’s ever going to happen again because, if we’re only teammates for seven months instead of four years, are seven guys going to fly to Cancún to be at somebody’s wedding?

That’s the sad part of this. That’s the thing I’m really concerned about.

Yeah, you bring up a great point. It reminds me of a story that relates to how hard you coach your players, but also how much they appreciate it and benefit.

When my son Kellen was at Notre Dame Prep as a senior in 2012, he visited Oakland. You shared with us that you were going to offer him a scholarship, but you said, “If that is the case, and you commit to Oakland, your dad and I will never be friends again because I’m going to coach you so hard.”

I always remember that, and I appreciated it. It’s a testament to how no-nonsense you are.

A lot of coaches nowadays, with the transfer portal, don’t coach players the same way. They’re less likely to yell and scream because the players will get upset and transfer.

Is that accurate, somewhat, that you have to coach guys differently now?

It’s 100 percent accurate. One hundred percent.

It’s not even so much them. Their agents. It’s an agent business now. I don’t deal with high school coaches. I don’t deal with junior college coaches. You deal with agents.

The agents have the players’ ears, and if the agent thinks the kid’s being treated unfairly, then that kid’s gone.

So, yeah, I think everybody’s coaching everybody differently.

What I’m trying to do is—we’re doing a lot of analytics on players. I’m having them take psychological tests and AI tests and all that kind of stuff. I have all this data on how to coach a young man, especially if I’m only going to coach him for eight months.

It’s not as big a learning process. If I’d gotten Kellen, within three weeks of practice, I would have known what words I could say to him and what words I couldn’t say to him.

Knowing the family he came from, there would be a lot of words I use that I probably couldn’t have used with him.

But you learn that through coaching them.

As you’re coaching, a lot of times people think you’re screaming and yelling, but you’re watching the body language.

If I yell at Kellen, I’m looking at his eyes. You can see how he takes it. Is he hearing what I’m saying?

Then you adjust how you coach every kid based on whether you’re getting through to him.

I don’t get to score. I don’t get to shoot. I don’t get to play. So whether I feel good about what I said to a player isn’t important. Does he feel good about it? Does he get the message?

In this day and age, the message is probably not one you can deliver over time. You’re not going to get four years to get the message across. You’re going to get four to six months.

So we do coach differently. We really do.

Final question about the game, Greg. What’s something we could look for within the game that your team is good at and could cause problems for Michigan?

Well, I think we can really shoot the ball.

If Michigan crawls into us and makes every shot contested and makes it hard to get open, it’s going to be a long night for us.

The other thing I think we do really well is offensive rebounding.

How is that going to work against a power-conference team? In our league, we’re going to be a really good offensive rebounding team. But when we get into these games, can we do that?

We had 12 last night at Cincinnati, and that was a really good sign.

If we can get 12 to 14 offensive rebounds at Michigan on Monday night, and if we can make shots, we’re going to have a chance.

Very good. Greg, I can’t thank you enough. You’re a legend. You’re also my friend. Can I get a “Go Blue”?

No, no. Go Blue, Tim. Go Blue.

All right. Good luck. We’ll see—

My dad’s up there yelling “Go Blue” behind me, so I guess it’s all right.

All right. Good luck on Monday, Greg. Look forward to seeing you.

Thanks, Tim.

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