Michigan Basketball tough trip overseas. What we learned + Dugan Fife Interview. Go Blue Hoops Ep 48

[Hail Media Group presents Go Blue Hoops, where Michigan basketball’s past, present, and future all come together in one show. Hosted by former Wolverine great, 10-year NBA veteran, and longtime ESPN and NBC college basketball analyst Tim McCormick. Each episode goes beyond the box scores from championship memories and recruiting stories to sharp breakdowns of the season ahead. Insight, legacy, Michigan basketball. This is Go Blue Hoops.

Hey everybody, welcome to the Go Blue Hoops podcast. Today’s broadcast is presented by the leaders and the best at Michigan Medicine. There is a difference between an answer and a Michigan answer. To find your Michigan answer, visit michiganers.org.

Also thrilled to be partnering with OLIPOP, one of my favorite drinks. Love it. Um, it tastes great and it’s healthier than other traditional sodas.

Also, thanks to Knight’s Steakhouse in Ann Arbor. Um, just fantastic, family-owned. If you want a nice juicy steak, go to Knight’s Steakhouse. And also, um, our newest sponsor is Valiant, powered by the great John Wangler. I’m a big fan of Valiant and the quality gear that they produce. So, I’m really excited about today’s podcast. We are your number one source and we do it every week all summer long. Um, we haven’t missed since the beginning of last season. And you know, originally we talked about in the summertime maybe we go once a week. Um, there’s nothing going on in the summer. That’s been so far from the truth. I feel like there are weekly storylines in the summer. Um, maybe as many as we had in the fall. So, we will discuss the games against Lithuania A and B. Um, I enjoyed the action and seeing the freshman play. Uh, there were plenty of bright spots and also some ugly basketball to break down as well. Um, but there was a lot to take away and I’m going to break it down for you. Um, also today in our Michigan man interview, Dugan Fife played with the Fab Five. Um, he’s from my hometown. I loved his dad, one of the great coaches in Michigan high school basketball. Uh just a great family. And so we’re going to talk to him. All right. So, I I wanted to circle back and talk a little bit about the podcast from last week. Uh when I talked about the rotation, I shared that I thought Roddy Gayle Jr. would be the perfect fit to start at small forward in the upcoming season. Um, many question that saying that, well, he’s he’s already played his eligibility. There’s all kinds of problems in the court. I am still very confident that the entire 2022 class will be allowed to play. Everybody else seems like they have five years to play um five five seasons, and I can’t see why they would not allow that for Roddy Gayle Jr.. Um, also Kenny Noland is from Columbia. He’s a combo guard. Um, I feel like there’s a precedent that’s been set and I think that both Roddy and Kenny are going to be eligible and play a big role for Michigan next year. Um, I don’t have a behind the scenes source on this one. To me, it’s just common sense and watching the story unfold. It also seems unfair that the NCAA has been granting eligibility to players from COVID and beyond. Um, it it’s only fair that the 2022 players get that same opportunity.

So, I also think the NCAA is going to get sued non-stop from every direction. Um, if Michigan was not confident that Noland and Gayle will be on the team next year, um, they would not have brought them to Lithuania and and had them on the bench and I saw those players there. So, um, I’m very confident that that’s going to work out.

Okay, a couple of observations before the trip. I was excited, probably like you are, to hear about uh Kenny Noland. And so I went to practice on Thursday. It was Kenny’s second practice and and I had a brief discussion actually with him just as you would expect. Highly intelligent, very confident, and here is why he selected Michigan based on his comments to me. He values the education. Why not? He’s an Ivy League kid. He loves the big brand of the big blue. He’s never played in the NCAA tournament and he loved what Michigan did in the entire season last year. Uh what about his game? Well, he averaged 17 points per game at Columbia last year. Um obviously a capable score. kind of reminds me of the scenario with former Michigan point guard Mike Smith who averaged 17 points per game also when he was at Columbia. Um, but he became a a pass first point guard when he came to Michigan. I don’t think that will be Kenny Noland. He’s a combo guard for sure. Elliot fouls a lot in Lithuania. You could have really seen how we could have used Kenny Noland in those games. Um, also I think Noland is a scorer and a creator. I could see him get some minutes playing alongside Elliot at shooting guard occasionally. But most important, I feel like I slept a little bit better knowing that if Elliot goes down with an injury, we’ve got somebody out there that’s a reliable backup. Um, also I thought that the practice with Elliot um versus Noland last Thursday, I’m telling you, it was the best practice that I have ever seen from Elliot Cadeau. Um, he was dominant. He was aggressive. He attacked Noland and and look, everybody already knew the pecking order. This is Elliot Cadeau and Trey McKinney’s team. But Kado made sure everybody knew that he was the best point guard in the building. It was a great battle. Both those guys went at each other. It was fun to watch. And Noland really is a is a pretty solid three-point shooter also. And Michigan cannot have too many shooters. Um, so with Noland, a few more talking points. I asked Mike Boynton Jr., “What did you see from Kenny Noland and what was the overall process to decide he was the guy you wanted?” Um, and coach Boon said that he did a full evaluation and they looked at 70 different prospects to to play the backup point guard role um or to move in a different direction, but they looked at 70 guys and Noland checked the most boxes. Um, I also talked to new assistant coach Mike Martin, who coached in the Ivy League at Brown and faced Kenny Noland six times during their Ivy League career. And he called him a tough competitor, a great skill set with the ball and a winner. And and once again, he will help Michigan win some games. And he will also make Elliot Cadeau better because he will challenge him in practice every day. Um, by the way, the game against Lithuania, the first game, Michigan with 27 turnovers. And so, when Elliot’s not on the court, you need somebody to handle the ball. And I think that could be Kenny Noland.

All right, Michigan versus Lithuania, game one. Um, fast start by Michigan, up 12, outscored by 24 in the second half. Um, and the obvious issue were were things like foul trouble and an injury to Michigan’s three most experienced players. Um, Estrella, Cham, and Cadeau were were sort of non-factors for the most part. 27 turnovers and most of the third quarter when the game was decided, Michigan played four freshman and Oscar Goodman. And physically, Michigan was dominated in the paint as you would have expected. Lithuania, like so many international teams, big, physical, older players, a lot of great experience. And also, when you have 27 turnovers, it’s no surprise that Lithuania had 32 fast break points in this contest.

So, here’s what I saw. Lithuania is an elite international team, big, physical, great experience. I thought Michigan’s freshman were just physically overmatched. And also, they’re playing from based on their high school experiences. They don’t know the college game. Um, they’re going to learn the most from watching Estrella and Cham and McKinney and Cadeau. Um, but in that game, it just didn’t happen. Michigan was sloppy. And then they also only had 10 practices and the offense is just not in. Michigan’s best players were either just okay or non-factors or injured or in foul trouble. If those two teams played 10 times, I think Lithuania probably wins eight of them. If Mustapha was healthy, that may be a little bit different. Um, also I would have loved to see uh Ricky Libbert, 6’4 wing, strong defense, fantastic shooter. Um, I saw him at practice on Thursday and he looked great. He didn’t practice, but he’s fighting a little injury and he said that that he will be 100% very very soon. Um, and so Ricky Libbert, if you’ve been listening to the podcast, you can tell that I’m a huge fan and I believe he’s going to be a high impact player from Michigan. Almost healthy, not quite. No need to risk it. Um, so let’s talk about the freshman in their first action. A lot to like. The four featured freshmen each played over 20 minutes and contributed, get this, 45 points, which is way over half of Michigan scoring. So, they had a good time. They they were intriguing for sure. Brandon McCoy plays with great tenacity. He’s going to be a fan favorite in Ann Arbor. The jump shot needs work. He’s a driver, finisher, creator. The defense will will keep backing up when he drives. And so if he can’t pull up and hit that mid-range shot, uh, that’s going to be an issue for him. But I think he his form looks fine. He just needs more reps. His floor game is always strong. Five rebounds, four steals, and as a point guard, he looked fine. He He’s got a nice handle, but it’s not his natural position. And I like him much better at the small forward. Remember, when you’re trying to figure out college basketball, you want to keep it as simple as possible. Catch the ball, make a play. If he’s the point guard, there’s a lot more responsibility on him. So, right now, I don’t I don’t love Brandon McCoy as a point guard. Uh Quinn Costello, 610, pure shooter. Michigan’s high scorer was 17 points. All of his shots were from three. He was five for N9 from beyond the arc.

Now, the big question mark is, can he diversify? Uh, can he find space in transition? He did pretty darn well against Lithuania. Um, in college basketball, you’re only as good as who you can cover. And I think that right now, Quinn Costello is going to struggle covering fives. Threes may be too quick. Four is his natural position. But there were a couple settings in which Michigan was switching one through five. And I think Mike Boynton Jr. wanted to just see how Quinn Costello could do covering perimeter players at the three and he did fine. Um he’s going to get better as time goes on. Marcus Møller 73, same size as a dime Mara. Um what a huge success story. He was battling cancer. Now he’s healed and has a wonderful skill set. um good hands, had a nice dunk in traffic, three-point range with ease. I I don’t think that that this year he’s going to have a huge role for Michigan. Um his specialty is rim protection. Um but that’s got to get stronger, too. He didn’t really own the rim. He didn’t block a lot of shots, but his presence alone, I thought, forced a few misses by Lithuania. The other thing is there’s no reason to sit him like they did Malick Kordel last year or Will Tschetter um because of the fact that he’s got five years. He can play five seasons and he might as well start getting reps. So um in blowout games and foul situations, I think they’re going to try to get him on the court because at 7 foot3, he is an imposing figure out there and he moves so darn well. Uh when I first watched him, he reminded me of some of the Illinois big guys and their ability to make perimeter shots. Um Jensen Hartmann, so much to like about him. I think he’s skilled, he’s a shooter, he’s a ball handler, he’s a playmaker, his dad’s a coach, so his IQ is really high. He can play multiple positions. Um, there will be a game this year where Jensen Hartmann goes out there and makes a bunch of shots and steals a victory for Michigan. He’s got a bright future, and I just I’m not really sure where minutes are going to come from for Jensen Hartmann. Last, I focused on the freshman, but I want to recognize the toughness and the hard work of Oscar Goodman. Um, I really wanted to see him play extended minutes, and we got it. He’s a baller. Highly productive. 27 minutes, nine points, eight rebounds. Was Michigan’s most aggressive rebounder. He had a beautiful dunk in transition over the Lithuania defense. Um, here’s the big question. He will rebound and defend and hustle. Where are the minutes going to come from? Um, he will compete at the four with backup minutes with Quinn Costello. Yeah, also when I look at Oscar Goodman, you know, I I felt all along that he really struggles with his perimeter shot, but he looked pretty good in practice on Thursday, knocking down threes. I had never seen him make multiple threes in a practice, and he did that. Um, he is one for four from three with Lithuania, which isn’t good enough. But I I would say, Oscar, keep shooting. Give yourself a chance. and and sometimes a shooter will find something that they can focus on that will improve their percentage. Um he is a guy that is easy to root for. Uh the final thoughts from Lithuania, I I I really don’t have much to add. Game one and game two were kind of similar. Quick starts, faded, struggle with physicality, um injuries, foul troubles. International teams are so much more physical than US teams. And without McKinney, Cham, Libbert, and with Elliot in foul trouble, Michigan was going to struggle to win against this team. Um, really glad to see JP Estrella contribute. Huge hands. He’s an excellent complementary player. Um, Oscar Goodman, winning player, physical, tough, not sold on his three-point shooting. Um, where his minutes will come from, not sure. He might be the ninth man in an eight-man rotation, which he probably wouldn’t like to hear, but you know, he he just seemed like a really good team guy. Michigan’s defensive rotation and offensive flow were very similar to last year. I didn’t see a lot of changes. That’s not surprising to me. um a lot of the base sets in their offense um are are in the players understand them, but there’s a big difference that you see in the summer as opposed in the fall. Um also, I thought that Michigan did a little bit of switch one through five, which I thought was a good idea. I kind of want to see um which players are switchable. And in today’s game, that’s so important for especially the big guys to be able to get out there and cover guards. Uh once again, second game, fun to watch Brandon McCoy and Quinn Costello and imagine their potential. Both will have key roles in my opinion on this upcoming season. Uh the defense was okay by both. A lot to learn that comes from practices and watching video with the coaches. um learning from veteran teammates and the expectations of what winning defense is. Uh both McCoy and Costello were highly aggressive on the offensive end. But when you look at McCoy, he had nine turnovers. Part of that is just going a little bit too fast, being too excited, and also playing a position that’s not normal for him.

Final thought. One year ago, I watched Michigan and their workout, and I was immediately in awe of the defense and the physicality, the switchability of last year’s team. The talent on the front line was incredible. Three lottery picks and but this current roster can’t be accurately measured until they’re healthy and completely intact. Trust me, the team will be exceptional this year. this Michigan team is loaded with talent. If they’re able to keep Roddy and Noland, then then I think that Michigan is going to be competing right at the top of the Big Ten.

Hey Michigan fans, we will be right back. But first, a word from our sponsor.

For generations, Knight’s Steakhouse has been an Ann Arbor tradition. family-owned and serving the community since 1952. From hand-cut steaks and fresh seafood to classic cocktails and genuine hospitality. Visit Knights on Dexter Avenue or downtown Ann Arbor. Knight’s Steakhouse. Great food, strong drinks. Ann Arbor tradition.

When prenatal surgery is your baby’s best chance.

When your sight is set on gene therapy for retinal disease. When a new airway is what you need to keep breathing. Only Michigan answers with specialized treatment options that aren’t available anywhere else in Michigan. We provide the nationally recognized care you need without having to travel out of state. Learn how University of Michigan Health answers the call at michiganers.org.

Hey everybody, uh it’s time for the Michigan Man interview. Um, before we do that though, we want to welcome another Hail Media sponsor, Sheri Weintraub and A2 Homegirl Real Estate Group with eXp Realty. Um, their primary focus is working with University of Michigan parents on investment properties for current students. Uh, so I can’t tell you how excited I’m about because we come from the same place. Dugan Fife is our special guest. He’s an outstanding leader. Um, played in the Final Four with the Fab Five in 92. He’s from Clarkston, our hometown.

Dugan, so good to talk to you. How’s life? Life’s great, Tim. And it’s great to see you. Thanks for having me on. So, I I loved Clarkston, and I think you did, too.

What was your Clarkston life like when you were growing up? Well, as you know, Clarkston’s a special place and uh my dad owned that golf course, which you know, people used to give me a lot of stuff about, especially on the team and and you you played at the golf course. It was uh we tried to break even on golf and sell a lot of beer was the goal. So, it wasn’t the best golf course, but I basically grew up with the golf course as my babysitter and all my friends worked there. So, uh, whether it was, you know, in school and in the fall and and, uh, you know, school year or summers at the golf course, Clarkston was just a special place. I actually, my first job ever was at Spring Lake Golf Course and I um, they they had me raking traps. I I wasn’t allowed to to drive any expensive lawnmowers or anything of value. Um, but I do remember your dad was a stick in golf. Um, yeah. Uh number I think it’s number 10 was a par five and I remember watching him hit a great drive, hit it to like three feet and made eagle and and your your your dad was a really good ball player, man. He he could play. And and the thing about growing up there is no one really taught us. We just go play. And at one point I remember my mom and my dad I I hardly ever saw them get in an argument. But one of the arguments they had was my dad was working at the golf course and then playing at the golf course. Which is why he said I bought the golf course, but my mom said, “Dan, we have three boys. You need to come home.” And so that was kind of when my dad’s game started at the the tank. Your your dad once again, the great Dan Fife, um high school coach at Clarkston, Hall of Fame, the whole bit. He played basketball at Michigan, assistant basketball coach at Michigan, pro baseball with the Twins, and I also I I also think he was a very good golfer.

What was it like being Dan Fife’s son? I I always heard rumors that you guys had just killer competitive three-on-three battles in your backyard. Yeah, I mean, our backyard was was pretty legendary. We had, you know, the Kolias brothers and and all the the local basketball people in Clarkston, they built a court and the trade was we’ll build a court for free, but we get to play there. And so they bring all those guys from Pontiac. And so as a little kid in the summer growing up, we we play three and three, four and four on that little backyard court we had. And the battles were intense. And then as I got into high school, you know, the um the Jokish brothers would come play and you know, Paul from Brother Ice and Danny and Dave would play. And then people would start coming from other towns, you know, when I was in like a junior senior year, they’d they’d hear about the game and just show up like, man, this isn’t Clintwood Park. They just roll up in my court and want to play. This is an invite only deal. So, the games were pretty intense. And just as far as being my dad’s kid, you know, it was great. Always had access to a gym. Uh, always had an opportunity to play whenever we wanted. It got a little tough in high school when people, especially in football of all things, and people would say, you know, Duke’s just playing because he’s Dan’s kid. and that that was a little tough, but you know, nothing we didn’t get past.

Did you ever consider going anywhere else other than Michigan with your dad’s allegiance and and all the expectations? you know, I started to get recruited for football late and before Michigan offered a scholarship for basketball, you know, I I wasn’t sure they were going to offer and a lot of these football schools were coming in and talking to me about being quarterback and and to that point Michigan was only talking to me about playing safety and I wanted to play quarterback and and at the time, you know, most of the quarterbacks were like Todd Collins, Elvis Gerback, they’re like 6’5, 250, which I was 61, 170. So, not my deal. But if I played football, I wasn’t sure Michigan was going to be the place. But basketball, I, you know, I had a top five, but wasn’t a real top five. It was Michigan. Michigan and Michigan.

When you considered basketball or football, um, what what went into that decision? Because there were a lot of big-time football programs that that wanted you. Yeah. So, it it got real simple. I went to Ann Arbor and Steve Fisher sat me down. and he said, “We’re recruiting you and a kid from Cleveland, and the first kid that commits, we’re taken. That’s all we have.” So, that was it, Tim. Come. I’m in.

Dugan, what did what did you learn from your dad? Um, you know, I didn’t get a chance to play for him. He took over two years after I left and he coached my brother. Um, and and he he was always a nononsense guy. It must have been pretty hard to play for somebody that that is, you know, he was confrontational and his expectations for you, I’m sure, were really high. Yeah. I I mean, if you ask anybody that played for my dad, pre-practice was like a life lesson. He would he would talk to you as I don’t know I don’t know if he had a time limit, but he would have these conversations with the team and it could have been about anything and and then go run, right? But it was uh he had great life lessons at the beginning of every practice and they could he could be talking about leadership or something you saw in the news or maybe an upcoming opponent and it it just ended up you know I didn’t think about it at the time but a lot of a lot of kids we grew up with Tim you know they didn’t have a strong male influence in their life. So my dad became very important to you know the kids that played basketball underneath him and it was like that for 30 years. But as far as just lessons, you know, just competing in everything you do, right, is working hard, work, you know, trying to outwork somebody. We are never the most talented team, so I felt like we always had to be better conditioned, work harder. Uh the fact that what you do off the court reflects on the court and vice versa, right? And I have kids that are athletes now and I constant with social media, I constantly have to remind them of that. So it was a good lesson to learn in uh 1990, right? that the things you do off the court uh may reflect uh the things you do on the court. But um I would say also just being a leader, right? Just just trying to put yourself in leadership positions from my dad, you know, when he was playing sports, he was always a captain. And and so trying to influence a team both with your work ethic and and also vocally was was also important to my dad and and a great lesson I learned. I know that that he was a, you know, a real toughminded guy. Um, a great leader.

Did you ever beat him one-on-one or at what age did you finally beat him? Oh, we we couldn’t really play one-on-one. It was It was not something that I that I wanted to do. But I remember coming home my freshman year after my freshman year at Michigan and he was still playing a little bit and uh you know I got stronger like you know I really hit the weights with with clocky and gained I don’t know if it was the right weight but I gained a lot of weight maybe 15 20 pounds so I was strong and and he was posting me up I was pushing all the way and after that game it was in the Clarkston gym I felt like I must have hurt him and so I’ve never wanted to guard my dad and and not just not just physically, Jim. I think I hurt him mentally a little bit, too, cuz he always he was always strong, but I never wanted to play against him after that. So, you were a great scorer and Michigan fans may not know that because you really accepted, you know, a pass first type of role. As a matter of fact, I had um I had a really good junior year, averaged 33 points a game, really good senior year. I thought my records would would stay intact for a long time, and then you go ahead and you break all of my scoring records. I I I didn’t appreciate that, but but I really knew what kind of scorer you were. Yeah, we you didn’t have threes, Tim. You could have you could have stepped out and you’d I don’t know how many threes you would had. You’d have been that first big that could go like a Kevin Garnett inside, outside, whatever. Um yeah, coming to Michigan though, when I when I committed, the Fab Five weren’t the Fab Five yet, right? They hadn’t gone and had that great run in the NCAA Tournament. So, I knew there was a lot of talent coming into Michigan and there was, you know, people forget, you know, you had Eric Riley and Mike Tally, former Mr. Basketball in Michigan, a big- time recruit. You have, you had Vosco, you had Pinka, who were fifth or seniors when I got there. Jason Boster, great score. You know, a couple guys transfer, but there was not just a Fab Five, but our team was loaded. I don’t know if there’s ever been a Michigan team top to bottom as talented as as my freshman year. They there they were absolutely loaded. And um you know when I got there fish like all right we don’t need you to score we need you to play D and you’re going to come in and distribute the ball throw it down to Juwan and Chris and then play great defense. So, like you just get in this mindset, the only way I get off the bench is if I play D. And I knew if I missed a shot, it’s right back on the bench. And then like Bosam Flinker, like if you get in, don’t shoot because you’re coming out because I thought I was going to miss. And so I just got in this mindset where, you know, you you you have a job to do and the only way you’re going to help the team win is to do that job. And it kind of carried over to my sophomore year, but by my sophomore year, um, I knew I had to shoot, right? We had we had lost Chris. we need the scoring. Teams are, you know, collapsing down on Juwan inside and so they said, “You got to be a three-point threat.” And so I worked off some of my freshman year. I I adjusted my shot with Jay Smith working every day in the gym and and uh became a little bit more of a score. I think I averaged six points, which is a far cry from 28 high school. But at that point, you know, when you get in that level, as you know, it’s all about getting the dub. It’s all about winning and and and winning the Big Ten, which sadly we didn’t do. But that that’s what it’s all about when you get to college. It’s not about your points to me.

So,

Dugan, in ’92, you committed to Michigan. You arrived in Ann Arbor in year two of the Fab Five. What do you remember about the first practice at Michigan? What What do you remember from Ray and Jimmy and Jalen and Chris and Juwan? Well, the uh the first practice, you know, it was you go there and it’s open gym and I didn’t get picked. Like, we had we had 10 guys and one of the guys was Joan’s friend. I had played against these guys in high school and I, you know, I played an open gym when I was, you know, coming up to Ann Arbor in the summers. I played against all those guys and I didn’t get picked. So like here I am on the team and I’m not there’s guys that are just friends from Chicago that’ll get picked before me. So I got to prove something and so, you know, I tried to do that um just by playing my butt off. Just I no one’s going to outwork me. I I got in a little bit of trouble. also like taking charges during pickup ball, which I didn’t think guys appreciated, but I didn’t care, right? I just wanted to earn the respect. Uh the one thing though that that I found out quickly was high school strong is not college strong. And then size, right? When when you might there might be one big guy over 66 in high school in the paint, you know, you had 610, 611, 7 foot, 67 of everybody was tall. So, you work so hard to beat that first guy and then you got to get it your shot over, you know, someone 610, 611, 7 foot. It was just it was tough. It was a tough adjustment.

Now, there there was a a story from Mitch Album that that Jalen blocked one of your early shots. What do you remember about that? Not one. And he didn’t care if it was goaltending or not. He would I I would get a lot of steals in those practices and and I would have breakaway layups and usually it’s after we had lifted. So I I could barely dunk anyway, but there’s no way I was dunking then. So they Jalen would catch me no matter what. He would pin it off the backboard and it may have already hit the backboard. He’d still pin it. He’d start yelling block party about the time I got to half court and then he was just relentless in my ear. So he he he blocked many shots but most of them were goaltending. Was was Jalen the biggest trash talker? Oh, I mean Chris was Chris was pretty good, but his was a little more quiet. Jalen was just non-stop, especially he he he called me Dan my entire freshman year and I I didn’t I didn’t think he knew my name. Um, but we we actually got to be pretty good friends off the court as well. And I I think I started calling him Jimmy after his dad and he didn’t like that. So, I quit that quick. Uh, but he he talked to a lot of trash, but he was also a really good guy and and one of the the best leaders I’ve ever played with.

Wow. When when you when you look back on that group, who was the guy that you did not want checking you that that he was a great defensive player and made life tough? Uh if Jalen if you scored one on Jalen, he got pretty upset and he would he would play D. He didn’t really play D until he got that first basketball. He just he just chirped. Um Jimmy wanted to play D. Jimmy, he’s so long. I mean, people don’t appreciate Jimmy. They talk about him jumping, but he’s also really long. And even I think he got he got pretty strong his junior and senior year, but even even sophomore year he he was he had he was a strong guy. So I didn’t love when when Jimmy guarded me, but you know during pickup ball, Tim, we weren’t very good defenders. There was there was not a lot of effort on the defensive. The Fab Five was so much fun. Um once practice was done and you guys were in the locker room, you’re hanging out at training table, um what what’s a story or a memory or an inside joke that that you remember that you can share? Well, guys from our era will appreciate this, Tim, because we ate at South Quad.

Did you did you guys eat at South Quad with football players? We ate at West Quad. Okay. So, so after every practice, we would go to South Quad and they had a room that was just for the basketball and football players. And when I first came my freshman year, Jalen had like a Plymouth Duster and Ray had a Dodge Dart or something. They’re the same car, just had a different name. And these cars, I don’t know how they fit in these things. They were so small. And one of them would usually drive. And so we would have six or seven guys that would fit into these these little cars to go to South Quad to eat. And so the football players, it was fun for them just to watch us crawl out of those cars, right? It was like a clown car. We get seven or eight guys in these tiny little cars that that could barely fit two of these, you know, 65 66 guys. So they would just die laughing as we’d crawl out of the guys. And you think about Fab Five and and Ed Martin and Money and all that stuff. Well, that these cars were not they were not cars that the NI NIL kids get today, Tim. So, the the jokes in those cars, the loud music, and having to crawl out of those things in front of all those football players talking trash is something I’ll never forget. So, you um you played in the Final Four. I think that was North Carolina, right? Yeah.

What was the Michigan team missing that that that maybe could have allowed them to win the national championship? I I think we had all the parts. We had beaten Carolina earlier that year in Maui and or Hawaii. We had all the parts. U we beat a Kentucky team that, you know, with Mashurn and and uh Tony Delk and they they were they were loaded. Uh so beating Kentucky in overtime, Travis Ford was a point guard. Uh I just think then you even with the Fab Five and all the talent, North Carolina had a lot of talent too, right? They were they were close and they they had a good bench. So it if we played them 10 times, I mean maybe we went six, but I I think we had all the parts. The other thing, one more year of experience because they were they were pretty ex, you know, they Montros and and Phelps was their guard and Donald Williams was only sophomore. But they were an old team, an older team. Lynch was uh who’s that that guy that played for the Lakers forever. They they had four or five guys go to the NBA. I mean, I think we played those guys 10 times. We went six, they went four, but it was it was such a close team game game talent-wise. Maybe it’s a little bit more experience. Yeah. What do you remember,

Dugan, about the hype and the environment? What what was it like playing in a Final Four with so many pros and the Fab Five? Uh, you know, the the game itself, well, backing up before the game, so we stayed at at a Hilton that was connected to a mall. And so, you know, you play in the Final Four and there’s a lot of downtime. And so, we we would walk in the mall and just that was the one time I felt like like an NBA player must feel like when just people are coming out of the woodworks and trying to get us into their store and hey, come to Foot Locker, sign this, I give you that and like it was it was pretty wild. that that was um you know the first experience because we had a lot of people at the hotels we kind of wait out and after games like you know like you guys had to just for autographs but at the game at the in the mall we’re just getting mobbed and then I I I felt like this is what it must be being an NBA player and it was funny how fast that went away when the fat pock left but uh at the game Tim it was in the superdome which you know I don’t I don’t love the big dome stadiums where final fours you know I just like Michigan when they They played down in Indie this year and they, you know, they they won it, but it’s just like a dull roar the whole game like being at a rock concert. And so you go in the locker room at halftime and just you just hear the buzz still and you don’t hear the individual sounds. It’s just one loud sound. And so you know, you talk about the timeout and and unless you were like focused on Fisher, you didn’t hear anything said like you had to be locked in and and I I was locked in even though I was on the bench. But if you weren’t locked in, you weren’t hearing him say, “We don’t have any timeouts.” As a a freshman,

Dugan, you had a limited role um as a sophomore, you kind of replaced Chris Webber, right? And yeah, and then started 32 games and averaged nearly seven points per contest. Um what did you do to transform your game? How did you use that freshman year to get better? So, I know you know Jay Smith and uh Jay Smith was one of our assistants, kind of a basketball legend and one of the best shooters from Mayo, Michigan that that I’ve ever seen. Not the guy you want to play horse with, but he and I spent a long time in the gym because one of the things we we focused on was I needed my shot needed to be quicker, right? We were going to kick some balls out, not many, but some balls would come back to the perimeter and I needed to be able to shoot it quickly because I wasn’t the guy. And so Jay Smith got this old hat at a gas station with this long brim and I would work on catching the ball and just just quick release quick release and I had to I probably made 500 shots a day. That’s how I shot till my arm was about to fall off and uh you know I got back to campus and and uh that’s that was my role. play D, get the ball up the court, get it to the right people, get us in our sets, and then if the ball came out, you had to you had to make two out of four shots, right? Which is the hardest thing for a shooter. You’re going to get four or five shots a game, you got to be, you know, 40%. And so that’s that’s what that’s what we focus on, you know, making those shots and and and playing good D, distributing the ball, and um getting the ball to Juwan is definitely a focus, becoming a better post entry player. All All good. All as you appreciate, Tim. You let those guys get you the ball where you want it, right? Well, you you had a lot of options available, didn’t you? I did. Yeah, because I mean, we had four guys. Ray was an underrated scorer, right? He he could score. He could shoot a little bit. He could take it to the the paint, but the paint was pretty crowded because Juwan like to stay in those spots. Jalen and and Juwan and Chris were such big personalities. Um, you’re highly successful in business now. You know, what did what did you learn? What did you take away from those guys about, you know, playing with that swagger? Like, get out of my way. I’m I’m going to do what I can do. You know, Tim, the first thing, and and I’ve I’ve thank these guys for it in person. The first thing I would say is, you know, they had such a tight bond with the Fat Five, with those guys, but I think that that’s what people saw from the outside. from the inside it was it was the team, right? They had to be friends of everybody. They would interact. It wasn’t like the Fab Five and everyone else. So, I would say just just making sure everyone feels like they’re a part of the team. That was that was an important lesson. And the fact that, you know, we had we had Bobby Crawford come in my sophomore year, a great point guard from Texas. We had Olivia St. John who who played the NBA came in. So, we had other options, but they accepted me and they encouraged me and they gave me a lot of confidence. So, so I felt like, you know, when you bring someone a new onto a team or into a different role, right, giving them confidence and supporting them so they can be successful is one of those things because just looking back on my career, one of the things I learned from Michigan is, yeah, when people say you go to Michigan and you’re set for life, I think that’s people use that all the time. And it’s while it’s not 100% true, one of the things I can 100% say is true is my resume got lifted off a stat for a reason, Tim. And I think a lot of that is because people recognize my name from from playing with the Fab Five and and that doesn’t happen if those guys don’t accept me and support me and encourage me. So anywhere I’ve been in my career, I feel like part of it is the fact that I I play with those guys at Michigan and and without them and their support, I don’t think I would have had the career I did. Yeah. What are you doing these days, Dugan? So I work in private equity real estate uh for a company called Apollo out of New York. Uh, I’m on the road a lot, but mainly I raise four kids, Tim. So, are you coaching them? I I I do coach my son and wreck and ed, which he’s a soccer player. Somehow I have four soccer players. He could be a I think he could be a good basketball player, but you know, now kids are forced to specialize so early. He specialize in soccer, so basketball is just kind of a fun thing for him. So, I’ve tried to make it fun and reckon. It’s probably easier. It takes the pressure off you as a dad also. It does. But Tim, you I feel like I live in Ann Arbor and so when you play against these other teams and these I feel like the the dad coaching the other team wants to beat me so bad. Like, man, I got four soccer kids or five soccer kids. None of my kids play basketball. We still beat him up, man. I’ll tell you that. I um I I’m curious your thoughts on the banners being put back up in Chrysler. I I still don’t understand it. What would it mean to you and the rest of the guys to to get that recognition up there? I Yeah, I think it’s just be it’d be a great symbolic gesture for for Michigan. Not only I think for our team and the guys that competed so hard to get those banners in the first place, but all the fans that supported and continue to support that era, right? And a lot of those fans are getting older and I think those those those people have special memories of the uh the mid 90s and what we were able to accomplish and you know I felt like you guys had a great run and then obviously Glenn Rice’s team and but basketball was never it was always sec well it’s still always second and maybe always will be at Michigan and so I think for a minute those banners made us feel like hey we were we were the prime we were the show for a couple years we were the show at U of And uh and I think just from my perspective, seeing those in the Raptors would would be it’d be great. I I would love to see that. And I’m with you. No idea why they don’t put them back up. Yeah. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. U I’d love to hear your thoughts on last year’s national championship team. What What did you see?

What was special to you? Well, I mean, I don’t think it even took a basketball fan to see the chemistry, right? Those those guys all played for each other. Nobody was selfish. didn’t matter who scored and I think it comes from the top, right? I think Dusty, that’s the way he built the program and he brought in kids that would adopt to that mentality and uh you know what what a run just to to get all that talent and and Tim this is I don’t I mean you played a long time in the NBA to assemble that degree of talent and to get them all to buy in in such a short period of time and really gel was just was amazing and and uh I just think Dusty’s a special leader. It’s sad to see him go. I don’t I’m glad he I’m glad he’s happy and and he’s going to do great things in Dallas, but you know what a great person to learn from for a few years on the program. Yeah. Uh you had an opportunity to play with a real special person, Robert Tractor Trailer. Yeah. Um passed away too early. Fans remember his great size and and his big personality. What what do you remember most about Robert Trailer? Tim that I mean you talk about great athletes that play basketball. I don’t know. I mean there were two kids in that class. So Trailer and Albert White were two I mean I’d put Ray Jackson probably the three best athletes I’ve ever played with where if they would have said you know I’m going to play football tomorrow they’d be Hall of Fame. They and they were they could do so many things. And Trigger when I first saw him cuz I you know you see him in person and I never really saw him play up close. I saw video but when you see him just warming up for the first time you’re thinking there’s no way this guy this guy can be that good. There’s no way this guy can run. And then he does and and he he drop steps and dunks and he steps out and shoots a three. And he he was a phenomenal athlete. And then the other thing I remember is his dance when you shook Robert’s hand. How it just it engulfed. I thought I had big hands, but his hands were were were unique and I could put my shoe inside his shoe. So he was just a a huge person, but such a great personal, you know, again, he was he was all about winning. You know, people would grab the stat sheet after the game. Robert never did that. He was just all about winning. Um we had just reconnected. He was playing pro in Puerto Rico and and it, you know, really sad to see him pass away. He’s just such a great guy and I think you would have been a great representative for the for our our family, the Michigan family. Duke, I want to close with some some quick hitters, some some short questions, fast answers. Uh, what was your favorite or maybe the toughest venue to play at in the Big Ten? Purdue. It’s funny how many people say that. That that’s really Yeah, everybody says Purdue. I I agree to that. was my toughest, too. Um, what about the the funniest of the Fab Five? Who is funny? Oh god, they they would debate this. Uh, I would probably say Jimmy. He’s a funny dude. Yeah, he his humor was quiet, but he’s he’s hilarious. Good. Uh, the toughest opponent you ever played against? Oh man, Damon Starttomire. That’s a good one. I still have nightmares. No one is that quick. Can shoot that well, jump that high, handle the ball like he did. Yeah, he was tough.

What was the most points you ever scored in a game? At any level. At any level. I scored, man, I think it was 49 at Clarkston. And you know, the uh the all-time record was 52 by your dad. My coach had that record and he took me out with about five minutes to go in the fourth. Oh, no. And I didn’t know how many I had and he says he didn’t know how many I had, but but everyone else in the gym did. That’s fine.

Wow. I that that would make me a little bit bitter. Yeah. Yeah. How how was your relationship with Steve Fisher? It was good. Yeah. Fish Fish, uh, you know, again, a guy who I I he was at a reunion we just had, was it two summers ago? Last summer. Yeah. Um, and, uh, I kept in touch with Coach Fish for a long time. I still talked to Dutcher. Uh, Fish and I were, you know, we we had our our moments. Um, but I I always I have to thank him. I I thank him for giving me a chance, you know, when I came in, offering me that scholarship. So, someone I always owe a high degree of gratitude towards. Who’s the most famous person you’ve ever met, man? I got to think about that one. Uh Tom Brady. How about that? Where did you meet Tom Brady, Tim? When I when I after my senior year of basketball, we were short receivers at Michigan. So, I lost to Texas on a Thursday. I was suited up in pads on a Saturday and I was probably like the six string receiver. The six string quarterback, my quarterback was Tom Brady. No way. Yeah. So, I played spring ball my senior year. And what what kept you from being on the team? I was terrible. That’s a good reason. I had never played receiver before, right? I was always and and so getting open was difficult off a jam, right? you got those little DBs are putting and I didn’t know I didn’t know that swim techniques or any of that. Um and so end of the end of the spring ball, Coach Carr says, “Hey, you know, you might make the travel squad, but we really need you to be a practice player.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I’ve done that. I’m good.” What did you um what did you think of Tom Brady? What what are your observations about the kind of guy he is? Well, back even back then, you know that we had Greasie Dbach, guy named Capsner. Scott Leler was just hurt who was going to be the next, you know, the guy after Collins. Uh the quarterback room is loaded and Brady was the odd man out, but he didn’t care. He’d get in a huddle and he he he would act even towards some of the uh you know, the older veteran linemen like he was the man. and that that would piss him off, but Tom didn’t care. He just he was his own man and he that’s how that’s what he did and I think that’s why he’s so successful. Yeah.

Dugan, did you have a favorite memory in Chrysler Arena? Yeah. I think my my all-time favorite memory one is was as a fan when the Fab Five played Duke uh when I was a senior in high school. How loud that place was. That was I don’t know if you were there but you’re probably playing man. That that was an incredible experience. That that was my favorite fan moment. And I think my my favorite moment was when we beat Indiana, Bob Knight’s Indiana team. We blew him out my sophomore year and just, you know, growing up and Bob Knight, you know, he’s such a legend. And and uh we just absolutely smoked him my sophomore year and just seeing him walk off the court with his head down, it felt great. Well, your brother Dne played for him, so I know that there was a lot of respect in the fifth house. He did, Tim, but I still say so, you know, Fish and those guys got fired uh when he was coming down. He was coming down on an unofficial visit and we go to the basketball tailgate and I graduated and everyone was gone. F, you know, I didn’t have a sub. I get a hold of Ducks. Where you guys at? He’s like, just got fired. No tailgate today. And then there was talk of us going on probation. So Dane couldn’t come here. Yeah, what what a great player he was. Um, just a couple more questions. Has anyone ever asked you who wins between the Fab Five and this year’s national champs? People bring that up all the time and that’s that’s a great question. Uh I the size that this team had and the athletic ability and I I think we’d have trouble guarding their point guard because he you know like so fast and and can get to different spots but I don’t know if they can guard Juwan. I mean people for good Chris was unguardable in college. He would get in foul trouble. That was the only way people could guard Chris and a He was a tough guard. So, I don’t know. I don’t know if the big fella could have guard could could guard Chris. To make it easy, if you played 10 times, Fab Five would win how many? Seven.

Wow. Okay. And and that that wouldn’t shock me either. You guys were amazing. Um, finally, when you look back at your journey from growing up in Clarkston, playing for your dad, um, playing alongside the Fab Five, what are you most grateful for? I, you know, Tim, I I growing up in Clarison and my dad and all his friends, you know, fishermanmen and all the guys that that played with my dad, football and basketball players, I was I felt like I was always close to Michigan and obviously watching you go there and your success you had and that that NIT championship you guys had, that’s just a place I always want to go. But so many people have a goal and a dream and and they just don’t reach it for whatever reason. And so I’m grateful for all the people that supported me and uh and helped make that possible to actually live out my dream and go to the University of Michigan and really without a thought about what would happen next. But you know some of those those people the same people they continue to support you. You meet people in school and and I you know I work with a person now same class they’re helpful getting me hired by this organization. So just one getting the opportunity to go to a place like University of Michigan. It’s such a special school. my I have two daughters. One’s there playing soccer, another one’s committed. So, um it’s going to be close to me for a while. Um so, it’s similar to what a lot of people say, just the opportunity to go to the University of Michigan and then reap all the benefits that you get by graduating from school like like you. Oh,

Dugan, thank you so much for joining us. Um I I really value our friendship. Our time together is always special to me. Um, and you have such a unique place in Michigan basketball. Now I know sports history based on the fact that you played with the Fab Five and with Tom Brady. That’s pretty cool. Right. Not many can say that. No, but thank you very much. My best wishes on your your soccer coaching career and thank you so much for joining us on the Go Blue Hoops podcast. Thank you, Tim. And thanks for doing this. Thanks for keeping everybody together. Really appreciate that. All right. Go Blue. Go Blue, Tim. If you like this kind of content, please like, share, follow, and subscribe.]