From Diagnosis to Resilience: Joel’s MS Journey. MS Warrior #47

[I wouldn’t even wish you’d understand. I just wish that God had a better plan. I’m so confused. I need a redo. A redo. There’s something that’s inside of me that’s begging and begging and pleading. I just want to feel free. I just want to feel lovely. I’m surrounded by love that’s in pain. Can I wipe your tears away? Please don’t hurt me. I hate that it’s for me. I hate that it’s for me.

Hi, welcome to the MS Michigan Man 64 podcast. My name is Brian. I am the MS Michigan Man 64. In 1992, I was playing football for Michigan against uh Washington in the Rose Bowl. Uh 5 years after that, I get diagnosed with MS, a chronic disease, and never goes away. And I’ve been fighting that fight ever since. What I do now is I talk to other people that have MS and other chronic diseases just to try to help explain what it’s like, the mental health part of it, the family part of it, the employment part of it. And today I am sitting down with an MSer that I met uh a few months ago. I met Joel on TikTok Lives. Uh this guy’s a badass. He’s 38

years old and he just got his diagnosis uh only in 2023. I really love talking to people that are newer in their diagnosis. Um just to help explain what that’s like. So, please welcome to the podcast, Joel. How you doing today, Joel? Hey, how you doing? Um I’m doing all right. Today’s an okay day.

Hey, that’s good, man. We’re we’re always up for uh okay days with this disease, my friend. So Joel, I know in in 2023, man, you’re 38 years old and you get your diagnosis of uh MS. What was going on in your life that led to that diagnosis? What kind of symptoms were you having and uh just take us through your journey, my friend? Um 2022, I was at work and you know my background that I used to work in juvenile jail. Um, and then it started with mainly fatigue in the beginning. That’s all I remember. And I was taking naps, you know, when I shouldn’t take naps. And then I was having coffee. I had energy. I had good sleep. And I was like, what’s going on?

But I was like, all right, maybe it’s something else. Maybe I am tired. And then later on in the year, I was having issues with my hand getting more and more numb, dropping stuff. I thought I was clumsy, forgetting stuff. I said, “Well, something’s off.” But I didn’t know it was MS until December 27, 2023. Uh I fell asleep at my job. My coworker found me and he was like, “What’s going on?” Um he had the superintendent for the warden send me to the hospital and I was in there for about seven days. So, I had to spend New Years in the hospital and um they thought I had a stroke cuz I

couldn’t talk, couldn’t walk, and all that stuff. Um I was scared because I didn’t know what it was. And yeah, for about five of those days, they just kept giving me steroids, all this stuff. They never talked about MS. They they didn’t think it was MS. And um towards my end of the visit, I I caught a visit. Um my wife pushed for me. She was like, “Do a spinal tap. Please do a spinal tap and they did and that’s where I got all my answers and I was like and I didn’t know what to do cuz I was scared. I heard all the stories about it.” Yeah. And um I was like, “I guess it’s my new path.” And yeah, here we are.

I know. I know. When I got when I went through my journey, Joel, and I was only 27, and when I got those words and they told me MS, man, I was scared to death, man. I I I’m sitting here, okay, what am what am I going to do the rest of my life? I’m only 27 years old. I I you know, I just started a job with the state of Ohio. I was working in a prison like like yourself. And I I I did not know what the rest of my life was going to be. I I just the mental part of it, you know, I cuz Let me ask you this. When they told you that you had MS, what did they mention anything about taking care of the mental part of it? I know

you know it’s MS and it’s physical and all that, but when you went through that diagnosis, did they like try to encourage you to address the mental part of it? No, they honestly it was just I don’t want to throw them under the bus, but they just were like, “Well, you have MS, you know, just maintain it best you can. That’s it.” And I was like, “All right, well, like this kind of freaking sucks because like I’m lost. I don’t know what the hell to do cuz I have I didn’t know anybody else with MS. I didn’t know anything. I was scared. I was alone. I had my wife, newborn kid, and that eats away at you mentally.” It does.

Yeah. and then and and just to listen to you now Joel um you know three years into it and I and I know that you know it’s an everyday struggle but I mean for for somebody to to be talking to me I mean how are you processing that now three years into it I mean you got MS it’s affected your career but I mean how are you processing the mental part of that now uh I try to stay stress free I don’t like to like get angry even though MS with the steroids on and stuff and as you know it alters your mood sometimes but um uh I try to stay stress free and do what I like to do and my wife understands that I I caved in last year to this year

going to see a therapist that helped a lot mentally because I needed to vent and talk about like all this crap I used to deal with and in the beginning when MS the way I dealt with it was I went well no I didn’t go back to work I had to go on 3 months disability short term and then my first neurologist that kind of killed me a little bit because when he told me oh man cuz in for me it was kind of backwards my wife had to push me around a wheelchair had a cane all that stuff and for the doctor to say oh man you look rough it looks like you’re just going to stay in your wheelchair and I was like wow you know Uh, give me three months. Let

me digest this because I I’m trying to figure out what the hell’s going on. And um, I I took the three months, I did my short-term disability, and then in March [year unclear], I went I was driving. I took my car and went to a state park near me and I had my hiking stick, started walking, and I was like, you know what? F this. I I you know, I’m not going to say it doesn’t own me, all that cuz MS messes with you. But at the same time, I was like, you know what? I took all my anger, I all the stuff, all the stress, all that crap. I just b bottled it up into something to give me energy. And that’s what I did for me.

And I I ended up walking three miles that day. And I was like, you know what, this I I got to keep going, you know, and and I think that’s a lot of the attitude a lot of us take. You know, I know that’s what I did, Joel, when I when I got that diagnosis. And I and I’m starting to process it and all that. I’m like, screw you, MS. If if you’re going to take me out, I’m going to give you a hell of a fight. I’m gonna do everything in my power to keep on going to stay upright and just and try to stay as positive as I can, you know, and and I had my bad days where I didn’t feel like being positive. Um, you know, and you’re going to have that, but I I know that I didn’t want to go through the rest of my life being depressed and like woes me, pity me. I’m

like, you know, it is what it is. I got to attack this. And I I think the biggest thing that I realized early is you got to get exercise. You know, whether you’re walking or going to a weight room, getting exercise. I think that is so important in in uh after you get your diagnosis. Yeah. Um that’s one thing. I I do my walks around town. I do my exercises at home. I do all that. So I just try to keep up and keep my muscles going. I also bought uh Dr. Gretchen. I think either she has MS or supports MS. Uh I got a great deal from her for the pulse device that helps a lot my calves when I need to walk, go for long walks. And um it’s I have to keep on moving because I don’t want to let the fear get the best

of me because I use all that fear and anger from the beginning and get me through the diagnosis of um no, I’m not gonna let go out this way. I’m not going to end up this way because this doctor said that I have a new doctor now and she’s I love her. She’s very good to me. She understands everything everything I need. She gets it right away to me and that’s what I need because I don’t want to be like stressing with like someone like the old doctor or stuff like that. We don’t need that. We don’t need stress for MS.

Absolutely, man. You know, and that’s an important part of it. I’ve I’ve been through a few neurologists. my first neurologist that I had um I couldn’t get a diagnosis from him, you know, and and I I fired him and I went to the neurologist that diagnosed me and I was with him for 15 years. I think it is so important to find that doctor that you like and you have a connection with. Uh you like the way they talk to you. I think that’s a real really important part of the diagnosis. Let me ask you this, Joel. When you went through that diagnosis, I know you said you have a wife. How did she understand the disease? I know she helped you get that diagnosis. She

pushed for the spinal tap, but how did she understand the disease? And how is she processing processing it now, 3 years later? She looked it up. She looked into it. She was like, “Oh, Joel, you know, this is going to be a pain in the ass, but at the same time, we’re here. We’re going to go through this.” And I was like, “I have no other choice. I have to.” Because she took it a lot better than I did in the beginning. And um and I have to say she she dealt with when I was first diagnosed, you know, bowel movements, all that crap. And I just hit everything hit me at once at in the beginning back then. And I was she she’s my rock because she really dealt with it

a lot better than I did because I was stressed. I was scared and I didn’t know how to deal with it. And so I actually honestly I met people on TikTok that have MS and I was like yo this is it’s not good to have MS but it’s good honestly because we can talk about it like like you I never had this in my brain to ever talk to you or someone else that has MS because it it helps a lot more than you think man. Oh yeah. and and and it’s the mental part. You know, Joel, I I have I um I know one person that is a friend of mine that I’ve known for about 10 12 years that has MS. Other than that, in 28 years, I don’t know anybody other than, you know, the people like I meet you

online and I’ve actually gone and done some speaking um uh events and and I’ve met MSers there and I I got I got friends now. But I mean, back when I was early in my disease, I didn’t know anybody with this disease, you know? It was me. I was I it was solo. I didn’t have anybody to ask questions to. TikTok wasn’t around. The internet wasn’t used. I mean, I think that this this venue that we use to connect with each other and to make these friendships with people that have this disease and understand it is so important for somebody that’s going through this, especially if you’re new to it. I know

that my when my head was spinning, I would have loved to have had somebody to talk to that has been, you know, that has been doing this for 10 or 15 years just to be like, “Hey, what what do you do? What what do you do? What did you do when it did this to you? What did you do when it did this to you? Have you ever done this?” I would love to have had that. It’s just such an important tool in my life.

Yeah. Um, when I had my issues, I didn’t really have anybody to talk to yet. And I was having, like I said before, bowel issues. Numbness is keeps getting worse in my hand. But I’m managing it best I can like compression gloves and all that stuff. My walking in the beginning, I could barely stand up. And then when I got COVID, I guess the fever, whatever it was, I stood up off my bed the one morning and I stood up, went down like a stick, and I was like, “Oh it hit me. It hit me.” I was scared because I was like, “I don’t know what to do.” My wife walked in. She was like, “Um, what happened?” I was like, “I’m down.

MS freaking got me.” And I’m like, “I don’t even know how to process it because I was like I was scared.” And so I went to a doctor and she was like, “No, you just have COVID. It did something with your MS with a fever.” She was like, “You’re fine. You can walk.” I was like, “All right, well, that’s what I want to hear.” I used my cane for about two weeks and so, you know, quarantine, all that stuff. And after that, I think I got on TikTok not far after that and I started meeting people like Paige and other people like uh Samantha I I don’t know how to say that her name cuz MS brain it sucks. Um Right. Right.

Um a lot of other people that tell you about like their daily activities and I was like this is this is good. This is I need to hear this because when I don’t know how to deal with this, I can go right to this video and learn how to deal with it because believe it or not, that helps you a lot. And oh yeah, you get you get scared and No, go ahead. Uh Brian.

Oh, no, you’re fine. I was just going to say I’m I’m 28 years into this disease and I and I still learn things from other people that have had this disease for only 5 years cuz everybody’s everybody’s journey’s a little bit different and everybody handles things a little bit different and I get a lot of ideas from other people. I’m like, you know what, I never thought of that. You know, in my 28 years, I never thought of that. And I I just love I love the way we can bounce things off of each other, you know, and and we just we it’s like a it’s like a really good energy on on, you know, in the lives when when we’re on there talking to each other, you know, we pick people up when they need picked up. We laugh, you know. I I mean,

it’s just a great great environment for people that are dealing with a chronic disease. I do have to throw a shout out because I learned a lot lately from people like Christine. And I know you know her on TikTok. She’s she’s I love her energy. I don’t know her personally, but honestly, I have to give her a shout out because she helps a lot and she knows a lot about MS. Yeah, she’s another long hauler, too. She’s had it for about as long as me and I love talking to Christine. She’s awesome. So, let what what kind of DMTs did they put you on? Um, did they give you choices or how did that how did that part of the journey go, Joel?

Well, because after diagnosis, I went to my own doctor and um well, I went to uh now my normal normal. I went to a doctor in uh Fort Monmouth, not far from me. And um he saw all my MRIs and even it looks like I may have had MS since 2020 cuz my workers comp doctors back then, they saw all the scans says, “I don’t know what this is.” Well, you know, it’s just white spots on your brain. So, um, this one doctor, eight minutes, he says, “You have MS.” I’m looking at it right here. All the answers are right here. And that was kind of good to just get confirmation quick apart from the hospital. And um,

that when he got me through that, that kind of started more of my journey to be like, you know what, I can fight this. Because that doctor him one of the first doctors tell me, you can do this. just eat this way, eat that, whatever affects you. And a lot of crap back then did affect me. Like I used to smoke cigarettes or uh drinking beer even. Well, before my son was born, I had like a smoke here and there. Yeah. But um that stuff I didn’t know affected me. And then even beer, I don’t know about you, but the yeast or whatever’s in it affects me. Like hard liquor, like rum, which I don’t drink now, but still that I can deal with. But the beer always had an effect me. I don’t know what h what what what it did to me.

Yeah. Like that stuff right there used to really affect me. Yep. And yeah, I’m I’m I’m a lot the same way, Joel. You know, I I I I used to be a beer drinker and it got to a point where I don’t know if it’s my MS or just getting older, but I don’t I can’t drink the carbonation anymore. I’ll sip on a bourbon or a whiskey and I’m fine. But I I had to cut that part out of my life. I used to, you know, every now and then I’ll I would hit a cigarette. I can’t touch a cigarette now. I mean it like it makes me my balance is all off. I mean I gave that up. I can’t do cigars. I mean you got to adjust things when but I what I I

didn’t hear I didn’t hear what DMT they put you on. I I didn’t hear what you what you said. I I my brain today is is wacky. I’m sorry. It just I I forgot. That’s all right, man. Hey, we got MS. We got MS, buddy. All right. It didn’t give me any options cuz once that doctor looked at it, um he was like, “You need to start on Ocrevus cuz it’s aggressive. You’re at mass. You have a rare form.” And I was like, “No one in my family has it. No one that I know has it.” He was like, “Yeah, it’s it’s hits about this many people.” I forgot the number. And um he was like, “It looks like a brain tumor. That’s why you think you had cancer.” I was scared because I lost 100 pounds in a few

months. I was like, “Whoa.” and he was like, “You need to start on this.” So, he called the head of neurology over here in Jersey. I think his name is Dr. Wear, I think. I think he called him and he’s the neurologist guy that told me I was going to be in wheelchair. He called that office. I said, “You need to be on Ocrevus ASAP.” So, within two weeks, I was on Ocrevus. How’d you did did u did you have any side effects from it or or how did it go?

No, it um I don’t want to throw it like put that hope out there, but it had me feeling pretty good either whether it was that the steroids, but it had me had energy. I felt pretty good and I was like, you know what? Let me stick to this. I’ve been on it for what since January—no, February [year unclear]. And I’m doing okay on it, you know, and I’ve come a long way because when I was first diagnosed, I couldn’t talk. I had a pad. I had to write and whatever I had in my I was thinking about or uh walking. I I was a fall risk in the hospital. I couldn’t go to the bathroom without a nurse helping me or the walker. But um it got to the point where well I have to go back to that. I just thought about it again.

In the hospital with the walker all that stuff, they had a camera on me to make sure I didn’t get up off the bed because you know, fall risk. So, um, they did that and I was like, “This is my life now.” Obviously, it’s not anymore. It it’s it has its bumps. I can’t say MS is perfect. And that’s what I talked to you about last time. That’s a gift and a curse because the gift of I did lose weight. I’m healthier now compared to where where I was back then. I’m going I’m basically taking the baton. I’m going to keep running and go as far as I can or as far as MS lets me. Heck yeah. you know, we you can’t you can’t give up, you know, and and that’s what I that’s what I like about you, Joel, you know, I mean, I know where you

were at and how how hard this thing hit you and I know where you’re at now. And I, you know, and I see a lot of people where when they get that first hit, they give up and and you know, they they’re just like, “Oh my god, this is my life.” But I M MS doesn’t have to define who you are. You know, you got to you first of all, you can’t give up. you know, no matter what it does to you, it can kick you. It can put you in a wheelchair. You know, I I’ve been in a wheelchair, you know, but I always said this is temporary. I’m going to be out of this thing. I’m going to be walking around. It’s an attitude. It’s a commitment that you have to do as soon as you get diagnosed. You know, you’re either going to say, “Okay, well, I got MS and my

life is over.” Or you’re going to say, “Okay, I have MS. I got to figure this out and and I got to keep going.” you know, and and I know that’s hard to do and it it affected your employment. It affected my employment. I made it 20 years. I talk a little bit about how it affected your employment and you know how that journey went went for you because I know that that that could be a really scary time too because you’re losing your identity. Uh Joel, with employment, I I did my eight years. I was trying to get uh vent vetted in and all that stuff. Um my employment, other people started noticing me forgetting stuff or falling asleep. I was tired over doing something very simple that or if I was doing something

on computer like computer work and I’ll forget and my hands would get numb or uh shake. They were like well you all right Vic? Like what’s going on? I was like I don’t know. Um but I’ll get through it. That was my attitude all the time. I’ll get through it. Just to kind of basically shut him up and not deal with that. And um it got to the point where either lieutenants or sergeants were like, “You forgot the key. You forgot to lock this.” And I was like, “Shit.” And that affected that. Or I used to help inmates move stuff in the warehouse and stuff. It got to the point where I was dropping and breaking stuff cuz if I

couldn’t feel it, I’d drop it or my shaking hit back then. It started affecting my work that way. And then on my reports when I had to do a leaving report for inmate they were leaving the facility m I would forget a lot and I was talked to I said listen I can deal with it and they said well it looking it’s looking like you can’t like you got to figure out what you’re going to do. And I was like, well, I didn’t give up and I was there till September 2024 and then I started the whole process for disability. So, here I am now.

That’s a hard That’s a hard thing, isn’t it, Joel? I know that when I went through that process, 20 years working with the state of Ohio and I was doing that paperwork, I was in tears. I’m like sitting here going, I can’t believe I got to give up a 20 year career because of this disease. That affected my mental health more than anything. Losing that identity, losing my my my my job, you know? I mean, that that was I was that it took care of my rent. It took care of my mortgage, my rent, my my uh my groceries, everything. It’s all gone, you know. And and I know a lot of people go through that. I I How did you handle the mental part of that um of of losing your career, buddy?

Uh that was it wasn’t easy. It it wasn’t. I’m not going to sugarcoat it. Um it’s because I was doing this. As crappy as people think it is, it’s I liked it. It’s It gave me something to look forward to every day. And I liked it. I missed it. Well, I miss it now, but um it ate away at me because I was like, I can’t freaking do this crap anymore. I can’t do this anymore. Like, I’m losing stuff. And I was like, but I’m going to do stuff when I get home now. Cuz I had to process it quick because I can’t like stress about it. I had in my brain I had to process it quick because I know how I am and I told you stress is one of my uh triggers and

basically I I’m okay with it now but in the beginning I was like I’m I’m a fuckup I’m I’m a mess up so I failed. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s what hit me the most. Yeah. Yeah. You beat yourself up. you know, you blame yourself for for uh losing your job because of a disease that you had no control over getting, but I mean, you beat yourself up. I did the same thing, Joel. Um, you know, and that put me into a really bad depression. And, you know, and I know a lot of people go through that. Let me ask you this. How did you get out of that? And and and because I know where you’re at now, you know, you aren’t where you were three years ago. Um, and

what kind of tools do you use to to take your mind off of the fact that you have MS and you know you can’t work like a traditional like people do? Um, I mean, what what are the tools that you use for the mental part of that? Joel, I’ll be honest. I’m I’m doing more like nature stuff when I can. Well, photography as you can see on my page. Um, that really helps me a lot. That’s I’m doing just stuff that kind of makes me happy, that takes me away from thinking like that because if I go down that rabbit hole again, which anybody or anybody period um goes through that, it’s you got to figure out what makes you happy, what can you do or what can you adapt with or adjust with and do

what you can do and make you happy because that’s for me that’s my biggest thing is not going down the rabbit hole going back to All right. Well, I missed this. I want to do that again. Which I do sometimes, but I can’t. And I have to accept that, which I did in the beginning. And I accept it now because my focus now all is on my kid, my wife, my family, and I’m doing the best. And other MSers when they when I hear their story, I’m like, you know what? Like I had the one guy the one time on someone’s life. He was taking it in. But I said, listen, I sent him a private message the one time. I said, “Listen, don’t stress about it cuz you go down that rabbit hell.” He’s like, “You’re right.” I say, “Well, is I’m not trying to be right. I’m just trying to tell

you, I don’t want you going there because the more you stress, you’re going to trigger yourself.” Yep. And that’s basically what I do, you know. and and and you said one thing that that I really like that you um when you were talking there Joel is that you know you took advantage of you know the time that you lost because of this disease and you’ve devoted it to your family your wife and your son and and and you know you’re you just went all in on that relationship and I and I think that that is a lot what a lot of people do. I’ve talked to uh like like females that you know they were in the workforce

and they had a career and this MS took away their career and they said you know what it was the best thing that happened to me because then I was able to be a mom you know and I’ve heard guys say the same thing you know I I lost my career but I was able to be a dad I was able to spend so much more time with my kids and I and I think that’s important you know is anything you can make this into this negative into a positive you know you got got to do that. You know, if it gives you more time with your wife, your husband, your kids, um your family, you know, any part of your family, just use that as the positive and and just kind of spiral that into um positivity and to keep on going, you know.

Yeah, you have to because I learned with MS. It plays tricks on you and other people MS. And I’m thinking, you know what? What triggers me to do this for this symptom? What triggers me for that? And I learned along the way that stress, like I told you before, is a trigger. But at the same time, I’m like, you know what? Let me dip into this. All right. I’m having a crappy day. Let me do this. Let me do this. I could do this. I feel good doing this exercise here. And walking al uh going on walks, exercising also helps. bike rides when I can and when I have the energy for it. Little simple things like that that I took for granted years ago really helped me out a lot more now.

Yep. Absolutely. And you said another thing that that I I it just made gave me a flashback in my head. You said I took it for granted. Man oh day. There were so many things that I took for granted that I enjoy now that I am more isolated with my disease, you know, because it’s taken, you know, it’s my career is gone. I I mean like nature, you know, I go up to the lake and I and I see I I I just I I look forward to watching sunsets and 20 years ago, I didn’t give I didn’t give a about any of that, Joel. But I mean, MS gave me that that gift of appreciation of of like all the beautiful things out there in nature, you know? I I’ve gotten to see more eagles in the last four years than I

have in my whole life because up at the lake there’s a bunch of eagle’s nests and just like seeing nature and and enjoying that it’s like opened up a whole new um like path in my brain that I get to enjoy that I never even knew that I had, you know, and I and I I now I can thank MS, you know. Thank thank God MS that I I I missed all this stuff and now I’m getting to I’m getting to appreciate it. I I don’t want to say it’s like a prison to have MS. It is sometimes, but that’s also in your mind. You You control the what you can control. And I have to say, I’m honestly living life more now than I did before

because I know this disease now. I know what I have. I know what I can do. I know my limits. I know what triggers whatever with MS. Well, for me that I know so far in the three years. I I can’t speak for later on. I’m talking about right now. I’m living in the now right now because I have to say, you know, do this. I’m going to do that. I’m going to do this. And when I was first diagnosed, I was afraid. And that was my own prison in my brain talking about look, you can’t do this. You can’t do this. Later on, you can’t. And I am. And I took it and I was like, you know what? I’m going to run with it because I am doing it. I am

going to do it because I’m not going to let this control what’s going on with me. And I speak for myself. I’m not going to say anybody else with MS. I know a lot of people get in their brains don’t because it’s a motherfucker. Yes, it is. But at the same time, what you can do, what makes you happy, do it because don’t pity yourself. I don’t ask for pity from other people and even people I know now they say you know oh Joel um how are you dealing with it like oh you’re still walking I was like listen I don’t want to hear that I’m doing because I am doing I’m doing this I’m doing that I’m okay that’s my response

all the time I’m okay because I’m not going to say oh yeah well I have a mess I need a hug no sometimes yes some people need hugs but at the same time I’m showing them I’m adapting I’m moving forward best I can. I love it, Joel. I love it. Joel, man, I I really appreciate everything that you have shared with me today, man. I love talking to you. I know that we we talk all the time in lives, but is there anything that you want to say before I start wrapping it up to anybody that might be in a similar situation as you? You know, they’re only three years into their disease or they’re just starting this out. What would your message be to them to, you know, just, hey, the sun’s

going to come up tomorrow. You got to keep on going and keep on fighting. All I can honestly say is show up. Show up. And it’s a fight every day. Do what you can. Make yourself happy. Get through whatever stress, whatever’s in your head, whatever’s in your brain. Throw the bad stuff out. Just keep going forward. Do what you can. Because when you don’t or or if you stay in your misery or your brain, it eats away at you. You don’t want to do that, you know, especially with MS. Yeah, I hear you, Joel. Buddy, man, I really want to thank you again, man. I I you you will always have a spot on here if you want to come back on and and talk about something else, you know, 6 months, a year from now on the journey.

Um, you know, we’ve been friends now for, I don’t know, maybe six months, and I really appreciate you, dude. I love everything that you have to say about this disease, and you’re a fighter, and I really appreciate you. And I want to thank you for coming on, Joel. No problem, man. Thank you for having me. All right.

Oh, no problem, buddy. All right. I’m going to get going. Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button. Share it out. We want to be understood. The best way to be understood is to listen to us talk. Till the next episode, this is the MS Michigan Man 64. I am out. If you like this kind of content, please like, share, follow, and subscribe. And as always, go

Editorial note: Two dates mentioned by Joel in the original recording conflict with his stated December 2023 diagnosis. They are marked as unclear rather than guessed. Verify the March walking date and Ocrevus start year against the recording before publication.]